Revan, as of this point, is the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and likely history. He alone would handle Caedus.
In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Malak, as of this point, is counted among the greatest heroes of the Jedi Order and one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy.
Caedus isn't clearing this duo realistically.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 11:26 AM
Darth Revan is more powerful then you give him credit of. Darth Bane was in awe of his capabilities and knowledge.
Also;
In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
This confrontation took place before Revan became Darth Revan. Yes, Revan became more powerful afterwards and his peak is probably Reborn phase.
Dark Revan is a split incarnation of Revan, not his top form.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Hence 'doesn't even approach Dark Revan', nevermind Revan Reborn. Oh and being the Jedi Order's greatest champion during that time is hardly comparable to being more powerful than Darth Vader and considered by all of the Jedi in his time to be only vulnerable to Grand Master Luke in power. Hence ragdolling Battlemaster Katarn and his allies with little effort.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Revan's accolade is not era specific, leaving room for greater possibilities for rank on his part. Still, being at the top of the Order of thousands of Force-users in an era is big deal, specially in an era when Jedi used to be competent and skilled. This is same as being among the most powerful Jedi in history. However, Revan could be the most powerful Jedi in history at this point due to the nature of his accolade.
Being more powerful then Darth Vader is still a vague position as far as galactic history is concerned. We certainly have a benchmark for Darth Caedus with this accolade but we don't know where exactly he fits holistically. What we can make of this is that Darth Caedus is among the most powerful Sith Lords in history. And second to Luke in his era as per your revelation.
Luke is stated to be the most powerful Jedi of his era. Some accolades:
"Even Luke's strength in the Force cannot help. The most powerful Jedi Master in the galaxy can only stand by and watch his wife die." (From SWTNJOS, released in 2002)
"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan," Jaina said.. (From SWFOTJV)
Essentially, Revan and Luke have matching hype as Jedi. But Caedus's hype can be considered on par on Sith front at least.
However, even if we give Caedus the benefit of doubt, he is still not clearing the duo of Revan and Malak because Revan is not alone here.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 12:20 PM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Except Malak is fodder in comparison to a Sith Lord as powerful as Darth Caedus.
Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order, you can argue that on Accolades, Hype and Feats. He is not the type to go all out in his fights but when he does, he makes everyone else look amatuer hour.
The fact that Caedus is considered far more powerful than Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Kenth Hamner and Saba Sebatyne is very telling.
Not to mention having broader knowledge of all the Force's aspects than Luke himself does. His esoteric knowledge is claimed to amount to that of a life time's research yet he did it in just a few years.
That is just esoteric knowledge, not including his own vast knowledge of Force Augmentation and manipulation, gained from coming closer to the Force than anyone on record ever has.
Revan Reborn at full would provide a very nice challenge to Caedus but ultimately Caedus is definitely top 5 ever amongst Force Users and Malak is far out of his depth here.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
What makes you think this is the case? Aren't we assuming top known incarnation of Darth Malak?
Darth Malak became the leader of Revan's Empire after the capture of the latter, which is very telling. In combat situation in a neutral setting, Malak held his own against the trio of Revan, Bastilla and Carth and managed to subdue Bastilla. This is also really telling.
Darth Malak is one of the most underestimated characters of the mythos unfortunately.
This might be true but still a conjecture until officially unconfirmed.
While Caedus's performance against Luke is very telling, it is also likely that Luke was psychologically conflicted during this confrontation. Caedus was a relative and Luke had to think about Ben too. When Ben stabbed Caedus, Luke was extremely worried.
So lets get back to Caedus.
Where it is stated that he is far more powerful then these?
So Caedus's command of the Force surpasses that of Luke? Any source which confirms this?
By the way, Revan also had incredible knowledge and command of the Force. Even as of Darth Revan:
To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives.
Taken from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
According to Tionne Solusar.
I am glad that you accept Revan's competency.
However, Revan was very powerful even during his time as a Sith Lord. I have provided ample evidence.
And Darth Malak isn't a weaksause either.
In this contest, while Revan is not at its peak, he still have Malak on his side, who is presumably at peak.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 01:29 PM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Darth Malak as a duelist is very underrated but even with complete mastery over the Star Forge's energies and numerous Jedi to replenish himself off of, he couldn't defeat amnesiac Revan whom was likely not 100% and exhausted by that point.
A standard Malak without said aid is clearly inferior to Amnesiac Revan by the point of Battle of Lehon and thus against Caedus would fall very shortly.
He didn't want to finish Caedus off no, but they fought a very brutal battle and dealt grievous wounds to one another, Luke wasn't holding back in that battle nearly as much as others believe.
He is believed by the Order to be far more powerful than anyone beyond his Uncle, Legacy of the Force - Revelation.
He doesn't surpass him in Command of the Force, but as Luke Skywalker retraced Caedus' footsteps in Fate of the Jedi, Luke readily admits that his nephew had much more knowledge in the esoteric aspects of the Force.
I don't doubt Revan's knowledge but I don't believe it gets close to Caedus' own until Reborn Revan as of Foundry, thanks to his previous centuries long mental lockstep with Vitiate.
Eh she's a historian with nearly no equal and the fact that Caedus' oneness with the Force was deeper than Luke's own is enough for me.
Simply put Darth Revan and Darth Malak aren't enough for taking Caedus.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
The amnesiac factor was not of great consequence at this point since Revan had re-acquired training in both Jedi and Sith ways after visiting Dantooine and Korriban respectively. It was also during the course of Jedi Civil War that Revan managed to develop a unique understanding of the Force and he wanted to teach his newfound powers to the Jedi but the Jedi High Council barred him from offering tutorship. In addition, Darth Malak noted that Revan had surpassed his former Sith-self after witnessing his progress inside the Star Forge.
Revan, at the time of invading the Star Forge, was stronger then he ever was before and had developed a unique understanding of the Force with newfound powers. Most likely, the most powerful Jedi in history at this point.
Malak's failure even after such magnitude of preparation is not his fault, rather demonstrative of how powerful Revan is. The guy who could comfortably tackle Darth Nyriss, one of the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire, is evidently stupendously powerful and latest updates only reinforce this point.
See above.
Fair enough
Though I still do not understand why Luke did not use his Force powers to overwhelm Caedus during this confrontation.
Exactly which novel from this series?
How do you know she is unparalleled as a historian? Also, even the best of the historians do not always get things right.
Also, oneness is not a consistent showing. It is a rare moment of extreme sensitivity.
Revan, as of Reborn, could approach oneness like state by drawing upon both sides of the Force simultaneously with which he could unleash powers of virtually unparalleled intensity. A talent that is also unheard of.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Revan upon recieving his Mandalorian mask combined both of his identities into one and clearly was far more powerful than his programmed identity. This combination of identities essentially began the insanity that creeped in.
Malak could not defeat KotOR Revan despite retaining every advantage in the book, I only believe the reborn incarnation of Revan to be strong enough to stand against Caedus.
Malak does not by any means make up for the power gap between Darth Revan and his Reborn incarnation(s) and thus Caedus would win.
Caedus purposefully engaged Luke with the intent of keeping Luke's superior use of the Force to a minimum, a tactic that evidently worked.
Essentially Caedus could match LOTF Luke in a duel but not in a battle of Force Power. This implies Caedus over DE Sidious in dueling ability due to DE Luke's clean victory over the latter in a duel.
Revelation as I stated(though it may very well be Fury and I'm mixing my bad memories of both novels).
Not unparalleled, however Tionne had free reign to read and record the vast troves of knowledge that Luke and other Jedi gathered for five decades following the establish of the praxeum, including texts such as the Jedi Path and Book of Sith. Her own incredible knowledge of galactic history before joining Luke's academy was very impressive by itself.
It is however a strong indication of how in tune with the Force a Force Sensitive is and Caedus' moment was so deep that his ability to 'overload' and stretch the limits of his physical use and extent of usage over the Force increased dramatically after it. One of the incredibly rare lasting effects we've seen from a moment of oneness.
Exactly, as of his Reborn incarnation, not Darth Revan.
Malak simply doesn't have the chops to stand against someone whom can effortlessly sever him from the Force (or even restore that connection) at will, as Caedus has already displayed against numerous others, including himself.
Darth Revan is not going to stand up to a Sith Lord as powerful as that, his prime might, but not Darth Revan.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Last edited by AncientPower on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 03:03 PM
Well, yes, Luke is conflicted for several reasons. Among them being 'Mwahaha, I killed your wife, strike me down with all of your vengeance and hate and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!'
He dares not use his full power for exactly that...Luke was more then attached enough to Mara that slaying Caedus outright might well have sent him over the Dark Side edge. Indeed, he specifically pulls himself and Ben away from Caedus because they aren't emotionally ready to deal with him. Physically ready, sure. Ready in the Force, you bet. But Jedi philosophy requires being calm, at peace. And nobody's feeling too peaceful when staring their beloved wife's murderer down. Or their mom's murderer.
Last edited by Angelalex242 on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 05:04 PM
This is a very interesting interpretation of Revan's development. You have artistic writing potential, it seems. This is a compliment.
You believe that Revan was somehow hindered by his programmed identity?
Revan, at the end of story arc of KoTOR, can be labeled as (Prodigal). Even during this time, Revan was powerful enough to cut a swath through the defenses of the Star Forge before approaching the position of Darth Malak. Revan's combat related performance on the Star Forge is among his top showings and also of the Force-users holistically in the mythos.
Revan was already prodigiously strong during the Mandalorian Wars and further grew in power afterwards, programmed identity did not prevent his power progression.
Darth Malak was also among the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy and could comfortably subdue powerful Jedi in combat (e.g. Bastilla Shan). His loss to Revan is not an indication of weakness on his part, it is rather an indication of immense power of Revan.
I don't think that Darth Malak is inferior to individuals such as Mara and Jaina. Even if he alone does not stands much of a chance against Caedus, he have (Darth) Revan on his side.
I don't see how Caedus can overcome a duo of the aforementioned legends in single combat. Caedus may have superior dueling ability then both but they are not significantly lacking in dueling ability and power in comparison. This duo can also pull off an effective teamwork to undermine potential advantages of Caedus.
Interesting interpretation. Thoughtful.
Command of the Force and raw power influence dueling ability of a Force-user. Caedus would not be significantly inferior to Luke holistically, therefore his performance. Of-course, additional variables are also in the works such as Luke was not willing to kill Caedus, at-least not in front of his son who was vulnerable at that point.
As for Sidious, he had disarmed Luke earlier in another confrontation. Therefore, Luke did not had a decisive edge over Sidious in dueling ability. Another variable is that Sidious may have neglected his martial skills after his recovery.
In the nutshell, it is not necessary that every confrontation between Luke and Caedus would end in the same manner as it did in front of Ben.
Then your point is moot. Not saying that Caedus is superior to those you mentioned but your claim is unsubstantiated so far.
Again, historians do not get everything right. They just obtain information from various sources that can vary in reliability within the lore itself.
As an example, no historian is in the position to determine how powerful Emperor felt to another Force-user upon contact without personal experience and no Jedi historian ever met him or lived to tell the tale after meeting. Emperor caused feint vibrations in his surroundings and disturbed other individuals with his mere presence because he unwittingly emitted dark side energy in palpable waves, his original body or vessels were barely able to contain the energy surging inside. It may be that Emperor had to consistently protect his original body or vessels from harm from internal energy that surged inside. Emperor's power progression spans a millennia and he have literally influenced environments on planetary scale with his dark side practices.
Fair enough
A significant development undoubtedly.
In-fact, Darth Malgus also experienced a similar moment of oneness after killing his love-interest which permanently enhanced his power in the aftermath:
Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.
He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.
He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer. He served the Force and only the Force, and his understanding of it increased daily.
The growing power whirling around him, leaking through the lid of his control, made the suppression of his Force signature impossible.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived
The power progression was of such intensity that the effort to maintain stealth literally failed as a consequence.
I don't think that events such as the above would ever be documented because they often happened in most unsuspecting circumstances.
As pointed out above, even if Darth Malak and Darth Revan are not as strong as Darth Caedus on individual basis, they are a team here and they are remarkably powerful each. Revan even more-so then the other and officially recognized as prodigiously strong even as of this time.
The duo have ample experience and power to overcome a single opponent such as Caedus.
The maximum that I can concede is that Caedus may win under favorable circumstances but not otherwise.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 05:40 PM
Jan 3rd, 2015 10:18 AM
