Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Firstly, because it isn't directed at you.
Secondly, 'largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see' does infact pertain to both size and potency, given the effects of said nexus were the most damaging in the mythos. Malachor V is a footnote by comparison, for example. It is self-explanatory at this point.
Thirdly, it granted him immortality, something he could later pass on to Scourge. Kinda the whole point of Scourge betraying Revan.
Fourth, a ritual requires a physical presence. The codex is quite clearly making a distinction between Nathema and Ziost, the first was the result of a ritual and the second was the result of pure *corrosive* power.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Size and potency are distinct. You're certainly free to present the argument that Nathema was the most potent nexus because of its effects, but you've failed spectacularly to defend the notion that the Encyclopedia really meant "most powerful dark side nexus" when all it said was "largest dark side nexus."
Which leads us back to that critical fact that... a planet is larger than a person.
The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:
Indeed the codex is making a distinction: between whispered rumors and clear displays. Not sure what the point of bracketing the word corrosive in asterisks is supposed to do for your argument: clearly the effect on Nathema was corrosive as well lol.
That's great. Too bad KotET says the Force is only corrupted there. Guess BioWare doesn't care as much about continuity as you do. Nathema actually makes people who go there more powerful, not less powerful.
Y'know AP, its time's like this that I'm reminded just how terrible a debater you are. Translation: In light of my inability to rebut your actual arguments I'm going to offer some vague rejoiner, before throwing in a red herring, and then proceeding to use it as a platform to spam more quotes, more cringe inducing ad hominems and more baseless self-praise.
My response:
(please log in to view the image)
But really AP, anyone with an IQ score above the single digits can spot this tacky, tactless attempt at evasion, or rather, barring Anthony, I'm pretty sure we can all recognise this for the automatic concession that it is.
That said at least you made an effort to post something (and you actually sourced your evidence this time!), so I'll respond, and maybe after that you can get back to the breadth of the argument you were supposed to be rebutting.
But for starters, let's address that aspect of the OP, so we can stop pretending that you've "destroyed" anything.
Now, your argument seems to consist of three main points.
That Vitiate was instrumental in creating the nexus on Dromund Kaas at "great expense" of his own power and therefore, shouldn't benefit from it.
That the Dread Masters were insignificant to Vitiate and therefore so was the potent nexus on Oricon.
That Vitiate moved beyond nexuses by consuming the most powerful in history to become uber stronk and immortal.
So let's see how each of these hold up under scrutiny (hint: poorly.)
#1
First, let's do some fact checking, and remind ourselves that Dromund Kaas was already strong in the dark side prior to the Emperor arriving there:And in regards to how strong? Well, simply take note of the fact that thousands of years later, Sidious considered the "transcendent vortex of energy" Plagueis created on Aborah to be akin to something "he would have expected to encounter only on Korriban or some other Sith world."
At which point said Sith planets, such as Ziost, Korriban and indeed Dromund Kaas, had lost much of their luster since the Sith golden age, or in other words, Kaas would have been perhaps more than a "transcendent vortex of energy" when Vitiate discovered it.
The fact that Vitiate was seemingly drawn to this planet because of its tremendous power (see above) only reflecting his desire to harness it, equally telling is the fact the Emperor chose to perform his Sith sorcery within the walls of the Dark Temple, a Sith tomb he had constructed that's architecture typically enhanced and focused the power of the dark side:Moreover the Sith Citadel also appeared to be a focal point for the planet's dark energy:Which begs the question in both cases of why, when this nexus is supposedly oh so out grown and insignificant, and of course the answer is simple, because it was not outgrown, and Vitiate, being a reasonably intelligent fellow, instead sought to harness it.
Secondly we have the insinuation that because it was of "great expense" to the Emperor to bolster said nexus that somehow he wouldn't have been able to benefit from it? Well that logic is frankly incomplete and really doesn't follow on when we consider that Vitiate had ample time to recover whatever was lost and then proceed to reap what he had sown.
#2
Well first of all let's interrogate the evidence of this:
Which is said by a subjective source. And here in lies are first problem, for though the Wrath is personally familiar with the power of the Dread Masters, they have never fought nor even been in the presence of Vitiate, and therefore knows very little of his capabilities bar exaggerated legend and rumour.
Or rather, from an in-universe perspective, the Wrath's opinion is pretty baseless.
But let's say AP that I throw you a bone regardless and we infer authorial intent. Does the fact that their power is "insignificant" in comparison to his own really make their power insignificant to him as a resource? Well no. Not when Vitiate went to significant pains to siphon the power of those far lesser to them, such as his Hands:And such as spirits of those enemies he entombed in the Dark Temple:Then there's also Revan:Who'd I'd remind you both the Wrath and Darth Marr also seems to be of the opinion is insignificant in comparison towards:Let that all sink even for a moment, particularly the fact that even the lowliest of the Emperor's servants, the kind that the Wrath effortlessly strangulated is still seemingly worth Vitiate actively drawing strength from. And yet a vast power of a planetary nexus isn't? Yeah not likely.
#3
Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with this you've essentially nailed the final coffin in your own case here. Let's just consider for a moment that by absorbing the power of a planetary nexus Vitiate "extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force."
Or rather demonstrates pretty compelling proof that Valkorion can achieve vast gains from a planetary nexus after all. "But teh were 8000 Sith Lords!" you say "and Valkorion is much stronker now!"
But then you went and raised Ziost as well, oh dear, let's review:More considerable gains for Valkorion from harnessing the power that can be from the energies of a planet.
Granted he drained the whole thing dry in both instances but think relatively for a moment, if Valkorion consuming a planet strong in the dark side is going to result in a permanent and considerable, if not vast transformation in power, him simply drawing on one is going to confer some sizeable amps, and he's certainly not at a point where that kind of power is mere trinkets and baubles to him. Not in the slightest.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Nov 4th, 2016 at 12:58 AM
So now that we've reestablished that Vitiate is very much in the buisness of nexuses, let's mop up the rest of your points.Sorry AP but you've dropped the ball again, this time by conveniently forgetting that Palpatine's most powerful Force storm was conjured before the Pinnacle Moon, in Hutt Space, billions of light years away from Byss.
(please log in to view the image)And of course, as your own sources state, Palpatine's use of said life energies were restricted to use within the Imperial Citadel, not in far flung locations such as the aforementioned:Nor in his Dark Side Compendium does Palpatine describe Byss as an instrumental aspect in conjuring these phenomena, of even an aspect at all:
(please log in to view the image)
Which rather have its origins within the body of the wielder. Indeed it is instead a reflection of "his own dark power".
(please log in to view the image)
On the other hand you've failed to provide any conclusive evidence that the aforementioned "experiments" include Force storms. So I would suggest conceding that point, yeah.
Sustain being the key word here. Not create, facilitate or make able, but to sustain that which has already been fashioned. Now what need could Palpatine possibly have for Byss to sustain his experiments, that he himself, the "the Dark Side's most powerful expression", could not manage? Well dear, consider that Palpatine is not only barely ever seen on Byss, but is busy running a Galactic Empire, or rather that being otherwise engaged could benefit from a source of independent, constant energy to keep his experiments going (and his various lackeys empowered).
Altogether not sure how this paints Valkorion as Palpatine's superior, only Palpatine as smarter than Valkorion for employing such an efficient artifice, the latter, for whatever reason, failing to demonstrate the same brilliance, or perhaps simply could not accomplish it.
As Temp has already pointed out, Valkorion was not immortal, simply long-lived. A feat accomplished by various ancient Sith who came before him as Darth Plagueis himself notes:Sith Lords who Palpatine, the dark side's most powerful expression, surpassed. Palpatine's master, Darth Plagueis, also appeared to have discovered how to extend his life as well:And Sidious surpassed him too.
On the other hand true immortality is described as for Valkorion, sadly, an impossible goal that he could never acheive:
(please log in to view the image)
Shame.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Nov 4th, 2016 at 01:02 AM
Oh yes, Vitiate's ability to effect the galaxy in potent ways as a spirit is indeed impressive, and certainly more than Sheev ever accomplished (well aside from clawing his way out of the bodiless void to tear apart the very fabric of the universe and transmigrate his crippled essence across the breadth of the galaxy -- but we won't split hairs) however through either a conveniently selective memory (again) or simply gross oversight (probably the latter) you've forgotten that at the point of death, Vitiate was a babbling mess:Who's disembodied form had to be taken to Yavin 4 were it was indeed indisposed:
(please log in to view the image)
This being of course without the convenience of a potent dark side nexus on which to attach himself to, but at the very least Palpatine didn't need his lackeys to come and pick him up. Lmao.
Anyway, it was only after being taken to Yavin 4, a planet described as Satele as on "another level entirely" to Oricon, itself "immeasurably strong in with the dark side", where his essence was stored within a Massassi temple designed to focus this immense power:(Note that the above refer to before Exar Kun further augmented their effectiveness.)
And having fed off thousands of deaths caused by the conflict:Was our dear Sith Emperor finally able to return and perform the feats that he did.
But what of Valkorion? Well at the very least dying didn't drive him insane but he certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to conjure up dark side monstrosities or consume planets, instead he seems entirely dependent on the player both to survive death and do anything at all, including the defeat of his Children and reclaim of his throne:
(please log in to view the image)
So why should we assume that when stripped of external aid, Valkorion would be any better off than Sheev? I see none, and in this respect it begs the question as to in what ways he surpasses Valkorion in incorporeal mastery.
On the other hand one critical and recurrent factor in the deaths of Valkorion is that it weakens him. Both after he was struck down the Hero of Tython (see above), and by Arcann:Whereas upon his rebirth in Dark Empire, Palpatine's deaths are described as doing nothing to diminish or even slow the advance of his power, instead with each body he instead came back stronger.And indeed was able to effortlessly shed his coporeal form at will: (please log in to view the image)
So what exactly, does Valkorion have that compares? Getting trapped in a holocron?And at last, AP rebuts a point.
Shame said rebuttal was hopelessly pathetic.
Anyway:
1. Nathema is irrelevant here. Vitiate wasn't going to trigger the ritual by consuming another planet per se, but simply causing countless mass death, which is yes, what created Malachor.
2. The speed of which Vitiate's galaxy draining ritual is also irrelevant to what ultimately triggers it, but regardless as Sunrazer rightly addressed, a Force vision can't be expected to accurately reflect time frames regardless.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Don't worry, I'll be sure to point out the several pieces of inaccurate information in your replies and see that your farcical attempt at redirecting the thread away from the genuinely important factor in this argument, is absolutely exposed for what it is.
But I'll deal with Temp first, funny how the PT Brigade has to come in at strength against me to make its arguments.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
AP is going through denial atm, but she'll realise this soon.I'd rebut this with a "stop trying to be Y!" - but there is really noone quite as awful as you.
Nov 3rd, 2016 02:45 PM
Translation: In light of my inability to rebut your actual arguments I'm going to offer some vague rejoiner, before throwing in a red herring, and then proceeding to use it as a platform to spam more quotes, more cringe inducing ad hominems and more baseless self-praise. 
