Well, Dooku, considered by many as Mace's inferior, was able to put a good fight against similar Kenobi, and Skywalker, who fought on Much higher level then this Vader. Shouldn't it be one-sided here?
And this Kenobi was said to have “regained his strength” I.e. back at his ROTS Level before gaining a further focused amp in the Force abilities. A pretty large amp at that.
Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.
Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.
Honestly ROTS Anakin would solo. As would amped (protecting the twins) Kenobi.
Not sure about Vader from Kenobi. Hes a force beast, but if Kenobi (before his focused amp) can force him back in Sabers, then I can imagine Windu being all over him.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jul 29th, 2022 at 06:23 PM
Vader solidly bested Kenobi before his focused amp.
And given that Kenobi had "regained his strength" before the added amp, it implies that Vader was already beyond his ROTS self. I'd reckon that either of the team could solo. Both of them together just makes it spite.
I know some people hate the notion that Vader and Kenobi were above the likes of Mace and Dooku in this era, but it ain't 2005 anymore. Things change.
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Last edited by Sheev on Jul 29th, 2022 at 06:34 PM
Kenobi did a mistake by attacking Vader with TK. Before that, Vader lost his balance due to Kenobi's superior bladework. Kenobi did something, that he didn''t before - was agressive and constantly pushed Vader back. Kenobi was clearly superior swordsman.
I'm talking all out here. Kenobi had "regained his strength" and was definitely fighting more aggressively then he did in ROTS (which would have arguably put him above his ROTS level), and Vader still beat him decisively in the end. It was only after Kenobi gained the extra focus amp that he was above Vader.
So Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi
I agree. But some people are still stuck in the same mindset they had almost 20 years ago. Things change; it is what it is.
^
Kenobi just fought differently. He had like 0 practice since ROTS possibly, even Vader declared that his strenght returned. Retunerd doesn't mean that he was stronger then before, just because he was more agressive. It's nothing more then a different style of fighting. And he had an advantage in saber fight since the very beginning, not after amp.
You also said, that Anakin bested Dooku with ease. Fine double standard from you. Anakin, in their last two fights, was Dooku's inferior (marginally, but still). Dooku was kicking him, in their TCW fight was constantly forcing him back, while Kenobi was there. Anakin overhelmed him in a second part of the final duel, because of his dark side amp.
When Kenobi is beating Vader its only due to amp and is overally inferior, but when Anakin's doing the same thing, he's far superior, yes?
I don't care if Dooku or Mace are above or below Vader or Kenobi. I like all of them. But it's not about that. Dooku was superior fighter to Kenobi in ROTS. Dooku performed far better then ROTS Kenobi then Vader against his similar version. We can even asume that this second duel between Vader and Kenobi ended when Kenobi was buried. Still, Dooku did a better work then Vader against Kenobi.
Vader was also weakened by his emotion so that’s likely why he didn’t dispose of Kenobi as quickly as Dooku did. It probably is something like this: Windu>Dooku>Amped Kenobi>Weakened Vader>EP6 Kenobi~RotS Kenobi. Still duo wins, especially because Vade won’t be hindered by his emotions like against Kenobi
Yes Anakin stomped Dooku after briefly channeling the dark side, but that's a moot point since that is how Vader always fights.
When Vader said Kenobi's strength had returned, I assume it meant that he was back at the overall level he was at by the end of ROTS (that would surely be Vader's measuring stick, since he constantly brooded over that loss). And I believe it was stated in a canon source that Kenobi was "channeling the force like never before" when he fought Anakin on Mustafar.
So in other words, Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi (end of movie) > ROTS Kenobi (beginning of movie).
TL;DR
Mace's best legit feat in canon is being a peer of Dooku in sabers, so there's really no way he's beating this team IMO. At a bare minimum, each member of the team should be close to his level in sabers, and they should each be able to dominate him with TK (since they both have TK showings that are worlds beyond anything Mace has done in canon). Hell I'd argue that Mace would actually do WORSE against this team than Dooku would, since he doesn't even have the option of spamming lightning.
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Last edited by Sheev on Jul 30th, 2022 at 01:33 PM
Evidence for that statement? It's not a dragon ball, lol. Kenobi didn't progress after any defeat or battle. He has 3 years of war, he progresset constantly but slowly, and suddenly, he's clearly > himself just a few days ago? It sounds prtetty stupid for me. But since it's shitsney... who knows, perhaps that's more then what's you're thinking of it.
Dooku wasn't using a Force at all in their last fight in TCW, and he did in ROTS after he got an advantage in a saberlock with them. Aside of that he once Force pushed Kenobi ealier.
Is there new canon material that confirms Sidious was toying with Mace?
Also, I believe Mace is still Yoda/Sidious level.
"A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary."
Source: Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #008
I guess it's a legends source that was relaunched and is considered canon once more?
Overall, I agree with your logic in this thread. Well said!
IIRC, Galan posted the source a while back, but I can't find it (the search function is crap here).
I'm talking about a forum fight, where the characters would presumably be using their abilities to optimum capacity (based on what they've shown in canon). In which case Dooku could at least spam lightning against this duo. Mace on the other hand has no force feat in canon that can rival them.
Jul 28th, 2022 08:49 PM
Thanks Scribble!
