First off, before we get into an all-out brawl, I'll hurry up and post and be civilized because I don't want to cause a fight. I don't have time to argue everything.
First Discussion Point: Quinlan & K'Kruhk
First scene:
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This shows how Vos is in urgency to kill Viento. However, when K'Kruhk intervenes, Vos thinks "There's no time for this!", indicating he has no intention of fighting the Whiphid.
Scene 2:
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This shows Vos's escaping and K'Kruhk again being an obstacle. Whether or not Vos was trying to kill the Whiphid, the major point delievered was that Quinlan was trying to get out, not fight.
Scene 3:
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You see in one slide that K'Kruhk gets the advantage in landing and that he slams his hand into Quinlan. K'Kruhk starts beating Vos up.
Scene 4:
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However, Vos manages to escape and stop K'Kruhk and negate the advantage. Impressive. But again, he was not trying to fight. It was more of K'Kruhk being an obstacle. I don't consider it a fight, more like Quinlan just running away. And in this final scene:
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Showing Quinlan's loyalty to the Jedi and the Republic. Quinlan wasn't trying to kill K'Kruhk, more just getting him out of the way, except he did it violently. And also there's my favorite Star Wars in the bottom rightmost corner !
Now here's the rest Planet...
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BlackZero30x created this a-'Maize'-ing signature! =)
Read my explanation against darthsith19 on Volfe and Quinlan.
Excuse? My friend, the CW Cartoon Series is for entertainment purposes only. If that's considered canon, are you actually believing Mace could defeat thousands of SUPER BATTLE DROIDS with fists???? Then whats the use of him taking a task force to Geonosis then ??? Kit Fisto goes into the water and takes out giant batteships and creates giant Force orbs. Everyone agrees that Fisto was exaggerated in the Cartoon series, like everyone else in the show.
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And wait, here's something I found on K'Kruhk and Quinlan. See this:
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Tholme says "Quinlan did not kill K'Kruhk, though he could obviously done so." This shows that Vos was not trying to murder a fellow Jedi.
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He had no indication of fighting the Whiphid at that point, because, you know, he was busy trying to kill who he thought was the fricking dark lord of the sith!!
Vos intention was clearly not to kill K'Kruhk, I never denied that, however he clearly didn't mind killing him if he continued to be an obstacle, and that much is made clear when he pushes him crashing through the glass out the window off of the skyscraper. The odds of him dying were pretty high, Quinlan knew this, yet he had no problem with it. Quinlan was simply too dark at this point.
No arguments here, except what gave you the impression that K'Kruhk got the advantage in landing?
Just to make it clear, I never argued that Vos was 100% trying to kill K'Kruhk, just that he had no problem with doing it if it meant that he was no loner an obstacle in his path.
And also, just to make this clear, I never denied that Quinlan >> K'Kruhk, just that there have been times in his jedi career where he has performed pretty averagely, and this was one of them.
Well what Mace can do contradicts what his actual abilities are in higher forms of canon, before and after, so it doesn't quite count. There are no such contradictions with Kit Fisto.
Tholme wasn't clearly thinking, he had been wrong about Quinlan all along, shown when Quinlan has no problem striking him down. Tholme was also slightly arrogant, of both himself and Quinlan.
Its canon in terms of events. It's not really canonistic in terms of showing Jedi fighting abilities.
Umm yeah there is. Fisto gets comfortably defeated by Asajj in the Cestus Deception. This CW Fisto seems pretty powerful and could defeat Ventress. It just doesn't add up how Fisto is suddenly this uber pwning Jedi in a cartoon show.
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Maybe so, yet Tholme could have been relating to the witnesses who saw K'Kruhk getting wounded. In one scene, you see when K'Kruhk rolls down some Rodians running towards him. Perhaps they told the story and Tholme uses reasoning to conclude Quinlan could have killed the Whiphid, but didn't choose to. W/e.
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The way I analysed the fight between Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos in another thread, you clearly worked off of that, and I don't have a problem with that, it's cool, but denying it only loses you more credibility. You taking my post very defensively further reinforces the idea, anyway.
Refer to my post above.
I disagree. Quinlan wasn't thinking clearly at the time. He wasn't calm enough to be able to make those kind of calculations. The fact is, he pushed K'Kruhk out the window without thinking of the consequences, and without caring if he would possibly die. He could have just as easily decided not to push K'Kruhk out the window, I doubt K'Kruhk would have followed him, he would have achieved his goal of getting rid of K'Kruhk without putting his life in danger. The fact is, he wasn't thinking clearly, and he just really didn't care.
No! Look at the scene again. At the 3rd panel at the top, you see them both land at the same time, with a slight amount of distance between them. Then K'Kruhk gets the better of Quinlan in even combat by elbowing him, and then slamming him down. My, how you love to twist things...
Right, so I'll just take your word for it then shall I?
Kit Fisto is as impressive in CD as he is in the cartoon, and no, what gave you the impression that he gets 'comfortably defeated', there's no proof for this, and it seemed actually pretty close to me. In fact, by CD, Kit was stronger than Obi-Wan.
That's a pretty huge assertion on your part, lol. I commend you for coming up with such a thing, but really, the context implies that Tholme was just basing that off of Quinlan being superior, in his opinion.
No, I didn't say that. I mean if you want you can take the CW into account but most people are going to agree with me and say most of the Jedi there are overpowered.
Are you serious? Fisto destorys ships in the CW with little effort. He's overpowered man, like most of the other Jedi.
Maybe...
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Vos's objective: Kill Senator Viento and leave
In this case leaving means killing K'Kruhk, which the comic showed that he was willing to do.
Yet Kolar was able to due to superior skill.
Why wouldn't he use Force Cloak? Neither went all out in the fight, though Vos went all out trying to escape and failed.
I don't have the novel, so I can't provide an exact quote. But it was something like "With Yoda and Obi-Wan gone that left Mace Windu and Agen Kolar, two of the Order's finest swordsmen, to deal with Sidious".
Except it wasn't like that. Usng the Dark Side in a duel should help you, not make you weaker. Anakin kileld Dooku by using the Dark Side, Kenobi held off Maul by using the Dark Side, yet Vos, even with the Dark Side, was unable to defeat Karkko.
I've discussed this already with Planet. Read above.
So what if Agen tracked Vos down, does it make Kolar > Quinlan?
It doesn't specifically say that Agen was better than Fisto though. It says he was one of the best.
Vos's mind was a wreck darth. It was total chaos. Again, I'm not sure how it worked out, but when Vos was calmed and fought like he should have been, he finished off Karkko. And Karkko failed. In a fight between Vos and Darkness Volfe, Quinlan wins.
Maybe Quinlan didn't think it was necessary. And again, in an actual battle, nobody went all out. Quinlan was just running. I mean, if he was 100% trying then he could have been like Anakin and jumped into the Nar Shadaa air, landing on some ships and running off. No, he was running for Khaleen I believe.
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No, however, that combined with the fact that he defeated Vos in combat when each were trying only equally hard to kill the other and the fact that is took place on Vos's turn and you have Agen > Vos.
Right then. So if Kit > Agen then I guess Kit's stronger than Quinlan, too.
Except when karkko had a chance to kill Vos he chose not to cause he wasn't going all out, just trying to taste Vos's soup.
A big mistake on his part, then, which brings him down.
At one point he was running. But when he faught, he lost. In actual battle they were both trying equally hard and Kolar won.
He did want to meet up with Khaleen, but if he couldn't do that if he got captured, so therefor his main goal would be to escape, then, after escaping, to meet up with Khaleen. Plus Kolar wasn't going all out, either, so your poiint is moot.
1.) How do you know Vos was trying as hard as Agen? Vos wanted to get away, Agen was actually trying to capture Quinlan.
2.) What does turf have to do with this? This is not American football lol!!! They were both on a hard surface dueling.
Did I say Kit > Agen. I just said it doesn't state Agen > Kit. And for all you know, it could be Quinlan > Kit > Agen or Agen > Quinlan > Kit. Because we're all in consensus thatn Quinlan = Asajj and Asajj > Kit.
After Vos started to dodge all of Volfe's attacks, Karkko went for the kill and failed miserably.
This is a random assumption. I can argue saying Quinlan said he was still loyal to the Republic, ergo he doesn't want to hurt Kolar, ergo he doesn't fight hard at all.
He didn't want to hurt Agen though. He thought that he can manage to get Kolar out of his way by going all out, but he failed.
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Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake. - tCD, CH77.
'Absolute fluidity', 'one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort'... I think it's safe to say that Kit was a master of unarmed combat.
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints. Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives. Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense. - tCD, CH77.
1. Kit was moving so fast that his movements almost broke a jedi's concentration.
2. Kit was unlimited by vertebral restraints, he was so flexible that his body was moving in two to three directions at once.
3. 'Who he touched went down', and this was all while unarmed, and it's not like the X'Ting sucked or anything.
Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone. Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile. "Finally," she said. "Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double lightblades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight. He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze. He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly—Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right. Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity. Kit rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake. Ventress stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph, laughing in that arctic voice. - tCD, CH77.
1. Ventress had the advantage in the sense that Kit was both injured and fatigued, and she knew the area well. And she was very powerful at this point, Kit losing isn't such a big deal; Obi-Wan would have lost too if Kit hadn't interfered.
2. 'He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly.', 'Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.', 'Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display.'... While this speaks for both Ventress and Kit, it's pretty clear that Kit's speed was phenomenal.
3. While the battle may seem short due to the small amount of writing, the style that it is written in isn't too descriptive for much of the time, just factually states what happened, so it's anyone's guess as to how long it was.
Anyways, I was going to post more, but I'm too lazy lol. Hopefully that should give you a good idea of Kit's skill.
Last edited by The Sith'ari on Nov 26th, 2006 at 07:28 PM
To expand on this point PK, a nice comparison would be when Skorr beat Quinlan Vos. The main reason for that was because Quinlan was tired, not because Skorr was better. It's just the same with Kit and Assaj, except Kit was also wounded, so even moreso disadvantageous for Kit.
I'm assuming Vops was trying as hard against Kolar as he was against K'Kruhk - in otherwords, he was trying to escape but was willing to kill Kolar if that's what it took to accomplish that. Kolar was trying to capture Vos, killing him was only a last resort, so it seems to me that their both trying equally as hard.
Vos is on turn that he is fimiliar with, Kolar doesn't know the turf he's fighting on. It's new territory to him, Vos knows it and the people who live there well.
No, most of us said Asajj > Quin, we just thought it would be close. When I combined what Agen has done in his duel with Quinlan plus what the ROTS novel says I'm assuming he's one of the top Jedi and ahead of Kit.
Cause the other Jedi were helping Vos and because Karkko was in a weakened state.
Are we in agreement that Vos's main objective was to escape at all costs?
If it wern't for these things do you think that Kit would have won?
No, the main reason is because Vos wasn't trying to win. So Of course Skorr won, Vos let him.
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Nov 26th, 2006 03:43 PM
??? Kit Fisto goes into the water and takes out giant batteships and creates giant Force orbs. Everyone agrees that Fisto was exaggerated in the Cartoon series, like everyone else in the show.
