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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Why is ANH Kenobi considered stronger than his RoTS self?


Why is ANH Kenobi considered stronger than his RoTS self?
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NewGuy01
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Registered: Jan 2013
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thumb down Maul>Vader, because Vader hasn't yet grown enough as a swordsman to get slaughtred in three moves. Duh.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 06:03 PM
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twotter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I was referring to what the fight represented thematically and it's role in the story. I liked what the fight expressed thematically as opposed to it's aesthetic appeal. The problem regarding Maul is that they didn't handle him very well prior to this episode. On it's own, I think thie way they handled the fight worked well.


What it thematically represented to me is a large gap between the present Kenobi and Maul. One that can be satiated with Kenobi getting stronger or Maul getting weaker. And based off prior Maul antics within the show, I'm saying it's the latter. Filoni's explanation doesn't satisfy me because

- I'm not an authorial intent proponent : the interpretation of the reader is more important than the intentions of the author

- His explanation doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective : where all the really good people don't have anti-climactic fights that fit into a single .gif

- I don't trust his sincerity : trying to give meaning to something that's lazy in execution, taking a note from the book of all post-modern artists in the new age

quote:
Doubt it. If they wanted to make more money, the flashy epic duel would have been exactly what fans would have wanted.


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So what your saying is, that their intention was to not make money and to not give what the fans what they wanted. You're truly the gift that keeps on giving. No. They already have the marketing clout of brand name to sell whatever they please. If they can cut corners while doing so, even better. Maul's death being one of those corners.

quote:
Evidently they've taken a lot of flak for their treatment of Maul.


Hey guys, I know the direction of Maul in Rebels isn't what many of you expected, but don't you worry, we've reconciled the situation by giving him a chance to show just how much he's grown as a fighter and a character!!!

Your Truly

Dave


(please log in to view the image)


__________________



“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 07:25 PM
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Darth Thor
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^ Lmao

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 08:44 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
@Ant

He says that people who are really good don't have long fights


That's not a prerequisite though. Take Sidious vs Mace, Sidious vs Yoda, etc.

Further, Witwer explicitly noted Ben's style in Rebels / ANH cut off the finesse and flash and became straight-forward, designed for the sole purpose to end conflict.

quote:
and that having a long fight would mean the characters haven't experienced growth. You can put those two together.


I don't take this as combat development, but rather character development of Obi-Wan's part.

After all, recall Witwer's interview where he went in-detail explaining how Obi-Wan's change in perspective after ROTS altered his fighting style.


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Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 09:10 PM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
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Ben is more experienced and wiser, that's it, which shows when he ended Maul. I mean he's still powerful, but old men can still be powerful yet not as a great as they were physically when they were younger.

Exceptions of course are in SW cause The Force, but Ben clearly isn't one given the SW comics he's noted himself even after he started training, that he wasn't what he once was and this was long before Rebels.


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"It didn't matter what they'd been before. All that mattered was that they were willing to fight—and maybe die—for the Alliance."―Col Serra.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 09:19 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf

but Ben clearly isn't one given the SW comics he's noted himself even after he started training, that he wasn't what he once was and this was long before Rebels.



Which comic was that?

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:15 PM
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twotter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not a prerequisite though. Take Sidious vs Mace, Sidious vs Yoda, etc.


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I've mentioned that his explanation doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective twice here. He can equivocate real life sword-fighting to lightsabers all he wants, but the notion is oblivious to elements which make up saber duelling : precognition and danger-sense. Two little constituents that explain why the duelling is much longer than it should be.

quote:
Further, Witwer explicitly noted Ben's style in Rebels / ANH cut off the finesse and flash and became straight-forward, designed for the sole purpose to end conflict.


Makes perfect sense. Then we can infer that Maul, who not only degraded in skill, was suckered by expecting the defensive-Kenobi we're use to seeing. Old Ben Kenobi being better or worse has yet to be seen in the context of Canon.

quote:
I don't take this as combat development, but rather character development of Obi-Wan's part.


You can interpret the fight however you want. However, what he said in that interview specifically seems to allude to their growth as duelists. That is the most logical explanation based on the transcript - Really good guys don't have long fights - a long fight would mean the characters don't have growth. Now as I've mentioned, I actively ignore his elucidation because :

- I don't care about Author Intent

- It doesn't make sense (as we've both established)

- I think he's bullshitting

Perhaps if your ideas were more flexible on the subject of authorial intent, this wouldn't really be an issue.

quote:
After all, recall Witwer's interview where he went in-detail explaining how Obi-Wan's change in perspective after ROTS altered his fighting style.


FFS, you're making me argue in favour of stance I'm not even taking up with this point :

1) This doesn't preclude the notion of Kenobi simply being better at fighting, in fact, it might support it.

2) Works that have multiple creators, actors and producers often have people giving conflicting statements regarding the story. It happens very often. It's also commonplace to see one creator make a statement that pertains to something, only to make another statement to the contrary on a later date. I can give you countless examples of this.

3) It's entirely possible that this is Witwer's personal opinion, in spite of his closeness to the Story Group. In which case, I'm not even sure if it counts as author intent.


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Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:15 PM
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Zenwolf
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Registered: Dec 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which comic was that?


The ongoing Star Wars series, specifically issue 20 when he has a fight against Krrsantan. Also in issue 15 he hurt his back after fighting a group of Sand People and saying he needed an easier way to deal with them.


__________________
"It didn't matter what they'd been before. All that mattered was that they were willing to fight—and maybe die—for the Alliance."―Col Serra.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:21 PM
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Rockydonovang
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Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
What it thematically represented to me is a large gap between the present Kenobi and Maul. One that can be satiated with Kenobi getting stronger or Maul getting weaker. And based off prior Maul antics within the show, I'm saying it's the latter. Filoni's explanation doesn't satisfy me because

Yea, I was just talking about what it meant for the story with my last two replies. When I watched the episode, I liked the different approach they took and the subtle symbolism they utilized. Be it Kenobi shifting from soresu to ataru, Maul attempting the same move he attempted vs Qui-Gon, Kenobi adapting to show he's moved on while Maul hasn't. I think the fight worked well for the thematic direction they took.

Though, on the topic of combat, Maul's contention with Ahsoka still put's him in Vader's range. Vader off course being a force user who several years pre-rebels has the feats to ragdoll the crap out of SOD Maul.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- I'm not an authorial intent proponent : the interpretation of the reader is more important than the intentions of the author

That's fine. If you don't consider holistic intent, then fair enough.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- His explanation doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective : where all the really good people don't have anti-climactic fights that fit into a single .gif

The authorial intent here only applies to this fight. And there were multiple additional reasons for the short fight which were unique to this specific duel. Like Maul and Kenobi knowing each other's moves, for example
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
.- I don't trust his sincerity : trying to give meaning to something that's lazy in execution, taking a note from the book of all post-modern artists in the new age

Well, that's too bad sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
(please log in to view the image)

So what your saying is, that their intention was to not make money and to not give what the fans what they wanted. You're truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Well, yes, the fans wanted another prolonged fight, and giving what the fans wanted tends to correlate with higher ratings and more money.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
No. They already have the marketing clout of brand name to sell whatever they please. If they can cut corners while doing so, even better. Maul's death being one of those corners.

Well regardless of what you suppose the motivation, the simplicity of the fight and the episode as a whole worked well with the story being told.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
Hey guys, I know the direction of Maul in Rebels isn't what many of you expected, but don't you worry, we've reconciled the situation by giving him a chance to show just how much he's grown as a fighter and a character!!!

Your Truly

Dave


(please log in to view the image)

[/QUOTE]
Well, yes, as a whole, they could have handled Maul better.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:24 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
What it thematically represented to me is a large gap between the present Kenobi and Maul. One that can be satiated with Kenobi getting stronger or Maul getting weaker. And based off prior Maul antics within the show, I'm saying it's the latter. Filoni's explanation doesn't satisfy me because

Yea, I was just talking about what it meant for the story with my last two replies. When I watched the episode, I liked the different approach they took and the subtle symbolism they utilized. Be it Kenobi shifting from soresu to ataru, Maul attempting the same move he attempted vs Qui-Gon, Kenobi adapting to show he's moved on while Maul hasn't. I think the fight worked well for the thematic direction they took.

Though, on the topic of combat, Maul's contention with Ahsoka still put's him in Vader's range. Vader off course being a force user who several years pre-rebels has the feats to ragdoll the crap out of SOD Maul.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- I'm not an authorial intent proponent : the interpretation of the reader is more important than the intentions of the author

That's fine. If you don't consider holistic intent, then fair enough.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- His explanation doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective : where all the really good people don't have anti-climactic fights that fit into a single .gif

The authorial intent here only applies to this fight. And there were multiple additional reasons for the short fight which were unique to this specific duel. Like Maul and Kenobi knowing each other's moves, for example
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
.- I don't trust his sincerity : trying to give meaning to something that's lazy in execution, taking a note from the book of all post-modern artists in the new age

Well, that's too bad sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
(please log in to view the image)

So what your saying is, that their intention was to not make money and to not give what the fans what they wanted. You're truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Well, yes, the fans wanted another prolonged fight, and giving what the fans wanted tends to correlate with higher ratings and more money.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
No. They already have the marketing clout of brand name to sell whatever they please. If they can cut corners while doing so, even better. Maul's death being one of those corners.

Well regardless of what you suppose the motivation, the simplicity of the fight and the episode as a whole worked well with the story being told.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
Hey guys, I know the direction of Maul in Rebels isn't what many of you expected, but don't you worry, we've reconciled the situation by giving him a chance to show just how much he's grown as a fighter and a character!!!

Your Truly

Dave


(please log in to view the image)


Well, yes, as a whole, they could have handled Maul better.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:25 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
What it thematically represented to me is a large gap between the present Kenobi and Maul. One that can be satiated with Kenobi getting stronger or Maul getting weaker. And based off prior Maul antics within the show, I'm saying it's the latter. Filoni's explanation doesn't satisfy me because

Yea, I was just talking about what it meant for the story with my last two replies. When I watched the episode, I liked the different approach they took and the subtle symbolism they utilized. Be it Kenobi shifting from soresu to ataru, Maul attempting the same move he attempted vs Qui-Gon, Kenobi adapting to show he's moved on while Maul hasn't. I think the fight worked well for the thematic direction they took.

Though, on the topic of combat, Maul's contention with Ahsoka still put's him in Vader's range. Vader off course being a force user who several years pre-rebels has the feats to ragdoll the crap out of SOD Maul.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- I'm not an authorial intent proponent : the interpretation of the reader is more important than the intentions of the author

That's fine. If you don't consider holistic intent, then fair enough.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
- His explanation doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective : where all the really good people don't have anti-climactic fights that fit into a single .gif

The authorial intent here only applies to this fight. And there were multiple additional reasons for the short fight which were unique to this specific duel. Like Maul and Kenobi having already fought multiple times, for example.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
.- I don't trust his sincerity : trying to give meaning to something that's lazy in execution, taking a note from the book of all post-modern artists in the new age

Well, that's too bad sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
(please log in to view the image)

So what your saying is, that their intention was to not make money and to not give what the fans what they wanted. You're truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Well, yes, the fans wanted another prolonged fight, and giving what the fans wanted tends to correlate with higher ratings and more money.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
No. They already have the marketing clout of brand name to sell whatever they please. If they can cut corners while doing so, even better. Maul's death being one of those corners.

Well regardless of what you suppose the motivation, the simplicity of the fight and the episode as a whole worked well with the story being told.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter
Hey guys, I know the direction of Maul in Rebels isn't what many of you expected, but don't you worry, we've reconciled the situation by giving him a chance to show just how much he's grown as a fighter and a character!!!

Your Truly

Dave


(please log in to view the image)


Well, yes, as a whole, they could have handled Maul better.

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:26 PM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: United States


 

Triple post there Rock. O.o


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Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:34 PM
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twotter
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The gift that keeps on giving.


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“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 10:40 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Triple post there Rock. O.o

Oh fck

Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 11:02 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by twotter

You can interpret the fight however you want. However, what he said in that interview specifically seems to allude to their growth as duelists. That is the most logical explanation based on the transcript - Really good guys don't have long fights - a long fight would mean the characters don't have growth. Now as I've mentioned, I actively ignore his elucidation because :


Well if you put his statement together with Gilroy's the "growth" he alludes to seems to be both combatants having simply learned from their previous battles, and Filoni's comments about "very good swordsmen" having short fights is simply an added justification for the lazily put together ending for Maul.

But if you want to insist he means what Rocky's arguing he means then Filoni is simply contradicting established Canon, so should simply be ignored.

However even if we accept the notion of taking on board authorial intent and statements, (which I know you're against), personally I think his comments are too vague to take as any kind of Canon fact. If he said "these combatants are both more powerful than they've ever been now", then that would be a lot less vague and a lot more specific, and would therefore have more standing for those who want to take Filoni's words as Canon. As it stands however, taking these specific comments as Canon (which would require many assumptions on his meaning and intent) is a foolish and rather desperate stand to take IMO.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 07:51 AM

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:47 AM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
The ongoing Star Wars series, specifically issue 20 when he has a fight against Krrsantan. Also in issue 15 he hurt his back after fighting a group of Sand People and saying he needed an easier way to deal with them.



Sure, but that was only like a few years post ROTS, so he may have improved again since then.

But you're right it certainly alludes to him already being past his prime. And let's not just completely forget Vader's line in ANH "your powers are weak old man". Sure that may have been Dun Moch, but it seems a bit random for Dun Moch as well.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:54 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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You don't take Feloni's words seriously, but you're willing to Take Witwer's?
Aight then.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 08:10 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You don't take Feloni's words seriously, but you're willing to Take Witwer's?
Aight then.




That's like, not what I said, at all.

But at least Witwer doesn't play favourites or shit on characters for no particular reason.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 01:04 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote:
personally I think his comments are too vague to take as any kind of Canon fact.

thumb up


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 01:07 PM
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Zenwolf
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Registered: Dec 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure, but that was only like a few years post ROTS, so he may have improved again since then.

But you're right it certainly alludes to him already being past his prime. And let's not just completely forget Vader's line in ANH "your powers are weak old man". Sure that may have been Dun Moch, but it seems a bit random for Dun Moch as well.


I mean maybe rework his fighting style sure to compensate for his physicals would make sense and add up, just like Vader had to. Since he started training again before the Sand People and the BH.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 02:59 PM
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