If the only way into heaven is accepting Jesus as your own personal savior, how do "good" people who never had the chance to, gain entry; is there a back-door to heaven?
What if you're someone born on an Island (or other), where Christianity never reached, but you happen to be a decent person. You don't covet your tribesmen's wives, you respect your parents, you never murdered or have stolen anything; you and your tribe happen to live in complete peace.
What's this person to do in Jesus-God's infinate kindness and wisdom?
I'm glad you asked this question because from most to all other Christian beliefs, it is a very depressing and damning belief.
Mormons believe in work for the dead. Someone stands in as a proxy and a person or person's having authority and worthy of that authority perform the work on that proxy such as baptism.
If you don't do appreciate anything about Mormonism, you can at least appreciate that in our religion, we believe in a perfect plan of salvation where all will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel.
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
They go to Hell. According to Christian mythology, the human race was condemned to Hell, 6,000 years ago. All of the children of Adam will automatically go to hell regardless of what they do. God, knowing that was not fair, decided to make a way for humans to be forgiven. This way to salvation in Jesus. Therefore, only those who accept Jesus as their Savior will go into heaven.
Now , why can't God let everyone into heaven? Well according to the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas he will. Therefore, everyone will go to heaven, but we are not supposed to tell anyone. After all, if no one will go to Hell, then no one would try to do good.
There's a flaw in that, how can a person accept Jesus once they're dead, as they'd be in hell for not accepting as one most in life, to gain the "golden ticket" in Jesus Wonka's magical-confectionery-play-land.
I've never read the Book of Mormon (just snippets), is there an addition to John 3:16/4:16, like an added clause?
Well, that's my question, how do the people who never had the chance to learn of Jesus-God get into heaven?
Is the Gospel of Thomas accepted as being part of the NT? It also directly contradicts what John said; how can the Bible which is "inerrant" have contradiction?
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
The Gnostic Gospels are considered to be heretical. According to Christian mythology, no one can get into heaven my works. Therefore, the people who never had the chance to learn of Jesus-God, go to hell.
John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." [NLT]
John 4:16 says, "'Go and get your husband,' Jesus told her." [NLT]
I'm not sure what sort of flaw you are implying, or what relationship you are trying to draw between Nicodemus the Pharisee (John 3) and the Samaritan woman (John 4), but there is neither flaw nor contradiction in these passages.
Now to your question: What happens to those who lived a good life but never knew about Jesus; do they still go to hell?
Yes. They still go to hell. And why? Because they are imperfect sinners who are unsuitable for God's perfect heaven. Once more, they know it!
God has given everyone a conscience -- an inner sense of right and wrong -- a sense that there has to be something beyond the tangibles of this world. While this inner sense is insufficient to save a person, it is more than sufficient to make a person conscious of his sins. Here's how the Bible puts it:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." [Romans 1:18-20/NASB]
While the special revelation of the Bible might not be universally available, the general revelation of God's created order is open to every competent person. ("Competent" excludes very young children or mentally disabled persons who are not able to comprehend their guilt before God. "The Lord preserves the simple." [Psalm 116:6/NASB])
It might be nice to think that some lost tribe in some deep jungle might actually live sinless lives, but the Bible says otherwise. Unfortunately, every person who has ever been born (except Jesus) was born with a sinful nature. We are all sinners who constantly do things we know are wrong [Romans 3:10-23]. When our friends from the long lost judge tribe stand before the Lord on judgment day, they will be without excuse. Each of them will be guilty of imperfection, and this is more than enough to condemn them.
"Hold on!" someone might protest. "That's not fair! How can God condemn people, when they haven't even had a chance to believe in Jesus?"
And they'd be right. It's not fair. If God were fair, He would immediately throw every sinner into hell and be done with it. Judicial fairness demands that all offenders be equally punished in accordance with the law, and the law says all sinners must die [Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23].
But God isn't fair. He is so much MORE than fair. The Bible says that God is GRACIOUS [2 Thessalonians 2:16-17].
Yahweh loves human beings so much, that He has taken extraordinary action to save some of us, even though all of us deserve hell. Grace is usually defined as "unmerited favor". Even though we can't hope to deserve it, God extends His grace to every person who hears the message about Jesus and chooses to believe.
But this brings us back to our friends in the jungle. If they have never heard of Jesus, they are facing a doomed eternity apart from God. And that's why crazy Christians like me spend our time tell as many people as will listen about the wonderful love of God in Christ. In fact, it's the reason I'm talking to you now. Jesus had a lot to say about God's grace. One thing He told His disciples as He sent them out preaching.... "Freely you have received. Freely give." [Matthew 10:8] For those who have received the forgiveness God offers in Jesus Christ, it is our great privilege and responsibility to pass on what we know.
Actually, Mormon's believe that when someone dies, they go to one of two places. Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison.
Spirit Prison is reserved for bad people or people who haven't ahd the opportunity to accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ yet. I believe this "prison" or "paradise" is actually the perspective of the spirit rather than an actual place, but that is my personal belief.
Well, the gospel is taught to those spirits who are in "prison".
This prison is what most Christian religions believe to be hell. Mormons believe most Christian religions have perverted its meaning to be hell. Hence why we call our gospel "The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Indeed, we believe that all* will inherit some sort of heavenly glory who are born on Earth...so yes, we believe that all will go to some sort of heaven.
*Some people born on the Earth will not go to heaven because they have "denied the Holy Ghost". This means that they have received a sure knowledge that the gospel is true. This could be a person who was visited by heavenly messengers and given direction or an Apostle or Stake President. This person MUST have a sure knowledge that the gospel is true and THEN turn away from it even after this person has received a sure knowledge that it is true from the Holy Ghost...in other words, denying the Holy Ghost to be with them and denying the things which they KNOW to be true. This person has partaken of God's perfection and righteousness but turns away and doesn't want any part of it. This type of person goes to what you would call hell. We call it outer darkness. This is where Satan and his fallen spirits will go to after "Judgment Day".
The Gospel of Thomas is NOT a part of the New Testament. Unlike the 27 documents found in the NT, Thomas and other similar works belong to the pseudoepigrapha -- a group of gnostic and other "gospels" that were produced by a variety of pseudonymous authors beginning in the mid second century AD.
It should also be noted that the Jesus Mormons believe in is significantly different than the Jesus of Christian orthodoxy. Thus, when we talk about "believing in Jesus", we are using the same words to say two very different things.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
While I am not a Mormon, it has been my experience that Mormons do not believe Jesus is Elohim. Evangelicals do. One God, three Persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Also, if I understand Mormon theology correctly -- including the doctrine of eternal progression -- Elohim is not the one and only God, as the Bible teaches:
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and His Redeemer the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no God besides me.'" [Isaiah 44:6/NASB]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
You've got that right...we just aren't convinced that one being can be three beings (unless of course God tells us otherwise but so far we've only heard from the council of Nicea).
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
The Bible makes it clear that not all who say "Hi, I'm a Christian" are telling the truth [Matthew 13:36-43]. Things like believing in only one God, or believing that Jesus is God the Son, are essential to authentic Christian theology. Those who believe in multiple gods, or think that Jesus was merely mortal, might be very religious, but they are not biblical Christians.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
Well, let's here it from the Bible.
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in this present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." [Titus 2:11-14/NASB]
I realize Mormons prefer the less accurate rendering of the King James Version that hides the Christocentricity of this passage, but that does nothing to change the fact that the Bible says Jesus is Yahweh.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?
God set aside the Kosher requirement, since it has served its purpose --namely, to further distinguish God's chosen people Israel from the surrounding Gentile nations. But in Christ, ethnicity is no longer a consideration. The gospel has been opened to up Jew and Gentile alike [Galatians 3:28]. Thus food regulations are no longer relevant [Acts 10:9-16].
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Feb 23rd, 2008 10:59 PM
