Gruff also has killed several past members of the senior council in duels too which I'd argue is far more impressive than what he did to Magog. Though when it comes to dragons we don't know if they are all on the same level. I think Ferrovax was said to be the oldest of his kind.
One thing I'm not a huge fan of is how Ethniu basically just came out of nowhere.
I've long suspected that about Mac. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: In Cold Days an outsider referred to him as a "watcher". There are angels in the bible referred to as "watchers" sometimes.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Yeah, Butcher has said that Ferrovax is the strongest and Siriothrax was the weakest, IIRC. But still, just being able to contend with anything on roughly the same tier as Ferrovax is pretty damn impressive. But then we've also seen Murphy go into God-mode while wielding one of the Swords before as well. And it really essentially is God-mode, considering where the power comes from lol.
Well, could be she's been manipulating things on the Fomor side for some time now. Kind of hard to say though. They have been doing their thing ever since the fall of the Red Court.
Yeah, and, IIRC, it also [SPOILER - highlight to read]: made a pointed comment at him about "having grace". A very specific word choice. One that is often associated with angelic power.
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Well remember that the Red King called himself Kukulcan and that is a Mesoamerican deity and it was implied the real deity had possessed Murphy. Even Michael was never shown to get that sort of temporary boost in power from the sword. So it's possible the swords can briefly channel any deity. It's also possible this is only possible in sacred places like Chichen Itza.
I'm sure Ethniu has been manipulating things, but it still felt completely random to me. I also wonder where Lucifer stands when it comes to Ethniu and Nemesis. Harry says he was behind the events in Small Favors(the one where Ivy is kidnapped by Nicodemus). Could be he uses the fallen to fight Nemesis, as at the end of Skin Game Nicodemus talks with Dierdre about using the relics they are after to keep them safe from "the enemy".
Yeah though Mac would have to be one of the weaker [SPOILER - highlight to read]: angels considering he was able to be shot and needed Mab to heal him.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Sep 26th, 2020 at 03:16 PM
It's kind of hard to know regarding the various deities due to the mantel thing. Who says an Archangel might not also hold a mantel of a god to a specific culture or other religion (hell, even on shows like Supernatural, Gabriel pretended to be Loki for centuries)? After all, most higher end beings hold multiple titles/mantles/aliases, the Red King himself, as you mentioned, also being an example. IIRC, Mother Winter is also Atropos, one of the Three Fates (based on the same mythological figures featured on Legends of Tomorrow). Then there's also Odin and others. So, it's not clear cut IMO. And I'd argue Michael being powerful enough to kill a Dragon, even a weaker one, is just such a boost. Because Butcher has described Dragons, not just Ferrovax specifically, as beings powerful enough to re-arrange continents. So, even if it's off-screen, that's laughably beyond normal Knight of the Cross levels. To me, it actually seems a case that an amp happens whenever a Knight is directly involved in a conflict where one of the Big League guys (a Dragon, Vampire God etc.) or something is involved or there's a potential for widespread repercussions. So, maybe we'll see it happen again in Battle Ground.
And Lucifer is an interesting one. Because in the Dresden-verse, he is also explicitly described as being an Archangel as well IIRC, sibling to Michael, Uriel and the others. Which then begs the question... Is Nemesis the reason for Lucifer's fall in the Dresden-verse? Because as Dresden was informed when he was first shown the Outer Gates, this battle has always been going on.
And from what I read from the other guy's comments, the implication was more that Mac [SPOILER - highlight to read]: was no longer a full-blown angel but was still something more than human. Because I also recall the Outsider commenting on Mac having made a choice or something along those lines. Maybe he gave up his grace at some point?
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Yes there are cosmic beings that have been known by many names and it is certainly possible the archangels have other mantles...it would be odd IMO for the biblical God to be okay with angels passing themselves off as deities though. This might be one reason archangels have so much power: they can't add more power by changing mantles. I also wonder if it would be possible to kill Lucifer or Uriel on Halloween, I'd say probably not.
And remember Michael killed that dragon off the page. All his battles we have seen with Harry he nor any of the other knights ever seem to do anything like that.
Yes, here is the passage:
"And while we're on the subject," I said, "I think the rules You've got set up suck. You don't get involved as much as You used to, apparently. And Your angels aren't allowed to stick their toes in unless the bad guys do it first. But I've been running some figures in my head, and when the Denarians pulled up those Signs, they had to have a lot of power to do it. A lot of power. More than I ever have had, even with Lasciel. Archangel power. And I can only think of one of those guys who would have been helping that crew."
I stood up and jabbed a finger at the podium, suddenly furious, and screamed "The Prince of f*cking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth - twice! - and You just sit there being holy while my friend, who has fought for You his whole life, is dying! What the hell is wrong with You?"
It's possible Lucifer got infected. Though if that were the case he'd be able to go against his nature and directly attack humanity. I also think that Nemesis is definitely what Nicodemus thinks he is fighting to protect humanity from.
Here is the thing though: Harry makes this observation before he knows about Nemesis and what it can do. Due to the very nature of Nemesis it is possible that the archangel helping the Denarians was not Lucifer, but rather perhaps an infected Michael, Gabriel, or Raphael. Though I do think it was probably Lucifer, technically Nemesis makes it possible for it to be any archangel.
That makes more sense.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Sep 26th, 2020 at 06:07 PM
Another interesting thing I've thought about (and others it turns out also have) is how power relates to choice in the Dresden-verse. Because it seems the more power and mantles you acquire, the less choice you have in how you can exercise it. Not in that you're literally bound (though this is sometimes the case), but more that you cannot act directly without considering a much larger cosmic balance. Hell, even Dresden himself, as he accumulates more power and influence, also finds himself more and more having to find workarounds and loopholes in order to still exercise a degree of free will in his various roles. Which also ties into the Lucifer acting against the nature of the Archangels (which seems to be maintaining universal balance) by trying to upset it.
I actually came across a discussion of it while I was looking up another thing on Ferrovax:
Jim Butcher really took the whole Spider-Man "with great power comes great responsibility" to heart. But I suppose it is a good way to keep a fictional universe's power levels from going too crazy. Better than what's often the case in other settings where uber powerful beings don't intervene in situations that really could use them without any actual explanation.
Also, seems there are more traditional dragons (lower case), with scales, wings, claws etc, but they're basically weaker emissaries to guys like Ferrovax and Pyrovax, the only two remaining Dragons (upper case).
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Last edited by TheVaultDweller on Sep 26th, 2020 at 06:45 PM
As to the other Archangels being infected? Well, IIRC, the Archangel Michael presented Sanya with Esperacchius and it's implied Rafael laid the protective wards down on the Carpenter house, so if they were infected it must have happened recently, as neither of those actions in any way benefit Nemesis. So, I think it's unlikely to be either of them. Jury is out on Gabriel though. He's the one we know the least about so far.
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Yes Butcher has done a great job at explaining why certain beings haven't just stepped in and snapped their fingers to solve the issue of the day.
And the fact it allows the supernatural to act without restraint is the biggest threat Nemesis poses.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
I don't think more than one is infected, but I think one of the "good" ones could potentially be infected. And if an angel was infected I would say it was probably within the last decade or so. Though it's possible one could be infected for a long time and is simply behaving the way it would be expected to behave until they reveal themselves.
Lucifer is the obvious choice, but Butcher doesn't like to always go with the obvious choice.
Speaking of Lucifer...it is interesting that the demon Chauncy said Lucifer was very upset when he found out Harry's mother was dead. At the time this was just the 2nd book in the series and it seemed like he was just making up something to mess with Harry, but given everything we learned about his mother....it's possible it wasn't a lie.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
There's actually a lot of stuff that Butcher reveals in fan talks and other interviews that haven't appeared in the books yet. I could see him eventually releasing supplementary books, like we've seem with HP and LotR for example, that details the wider lore of the universe.
For example, up until recently I had no idea the reason the Eldest Gruff is so much more powerful than its siblings, and pretty much any mortal wizard based on the beating 3 Senior Council members thing, is because it's also a mantle of power to a specific champion of Summer which gets passed on if its wielder dies, I'm assuming to the next eldest Gruff. Then I actually watched and read through a few of his talks (some of which are on YouTube) and found this out, among other things.
I'm just imagining it. Imagine Eldest Gruff's magical power + Tiny's physical size and power. That's a scary opponent.
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Last edited by TheVaultDweller on Sep 29th, 2020 at 06:45 AM
Also, as to previous mentions about the mantle of Winter Knight changing Harry, Sarissa claimed Lloyd Slate wasn't the psychotic monster we meet initially either. When Harry tells her at one point that he's not like Slade, she responds, "Neither was he. Not at first." And then there's this:
So, seems the mantle of Winter Knight eventually turns whoever its current wielder is into a psycho butcher. And those guys only had human lifespans. So, everyone better be hoping Harry manages to either get rid of the mantle at some point or somehow break the mental aspect of being the Winter Knight.
Another interesting tidbit is that the current Mab/Titania are somewhere between 1000-2000 years old, as they were around before this:
It makes sense there would be other mantles, hell Odin has several. I'm sure Erl King does too. He should put together a supplementary book with all this info. I doubt most people even know about the Oblivion War. I wonder if that ties into Nemesis.
New book out today, but I probably won't have mine until tomorrow or Thursday.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
The thing is those guys didn't just have human lifespans, they had human willpower. Harry's mental fortitude is going to be superior and it will only get better with age.
I don't know if it's destined for everyone to succumb to the mantle, it might just be that Mab has chosen people who would be especially vulnerable to falling. When she saw Slade had betrayed her she knew she needed to up her game, had a knight ever betrayed her before? Probably not. Then again Harry has been struggling with his urges to rape and maim people.
Though to be honest by the time the series ends I do not expect Harry to be the Winter Knight I expect him to be the Blackstaff.
And yeah I think it has been said before Mab isn't the first Winter Queen. I'm not sure if the Winter Mother is Mab's actual mother I forget if this has been said. I know Aurora and Maeve were the actual children of Titania and Mab, though the fathers are never mentioned. Maeve was a changeling so she had a human father, I wonder if Aurora did? Can two fae even have kids?
If the Queen's do eventually become the Mother's then there is perhaps something interesting about the fact Harry did harm to the Winter Mother the last time he summoned her. If she is weakening...could it mean her time as Winter Mother is coming to an end and thus Mab might be becoming the new Winter Mother?
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Sep 29th, 2020 at 06:33 PM
Yeah, I also think Harry will lose the Winter Knight mantle at some point (it has been hinted at that it's possible) and that he'll eventually take Ebenezer's place as the Blackstaff of the White Council. But based on the history of the various Winter Knights and all the compulsions and urges Harry has felt since taking up the mantle, I'd say it's definitely that that's turning people into monsters. Hopefully, Murphy, his daughter and others can keep him in check on the moral/ethical side of things.
I can't recall a specific explicit reference to Mother Winter being the current Mab's biological mother. I know she considers her a "romantic" (lol), which implies informality, but that could just be due to knowing someone for over a thousand years.
As to Harry hurting Mother Winter? Not sure if it's her weakening or just Harry's position. Because, IIRC, it's been implied that the Queens are just as vulnerable to the Knights as other Sidhe are. The whole being vulnerable to something that's also a part of you shtick. It'd be trouble for them otherwise. Can't think of anyone else currently capable of stepping into one of the Winter Queen mantles. Though I'd argue that, as things currently stand, the balance of power between the two Courts is in Winter's favour, if you consider their Knight and Winter Lady are base wizards whereas the Summer Knight and Lady are only base changelings.
__________________ Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
But Harry has summoned Mab and Molly without harming them so I don't know if it's just cuz he's the winter knight. Mother Summer remarks she is weakening too I think.
I'm about halfway through the new book. Already some [SPOILER - highlight to read]: deaths and future plot points seeded. Wardens in the Black Court?
And as for Ferrovax, according to bob [SPOILER - highlight to read]: his true form would break reality in the real world, and that he's strong enough to stop reality from temporarily collapsing while in the nevernever
A lot of action so far.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Dammit [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Murphy is dead. Harry has bad luck with women. I haven't finsihed yet so maybe somehow it gets undone, but that usually isn't how Butcher rolls. It's possible she becomes one of the einherjar or valkyries I guess
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:09 AM
Well damn, I finished the book. Intense, a lot of questions were answered. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Apparently if Mab died Molly would indeed take her place. And Nemesis is a walker and in possession of Justine and has been for years. I was right about Murphy's fate, she's gone and with Odin now. Harry is booted out of the council.
And Marcone is a frickin magic user now cuz he took up Thorned Namshiel's coin. And Mab is forcing Harry to marry Lara lol.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
__________________
Thanks for the sig Scot-and for the help with my avatar
When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown but only 4 to reach out and bchslap them upside down on their head
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