First off, thank you for deciding to continue, I'd like to assure you that I'm not the kind of person who will argue for the movie characters regardless of the situation either.
As for your disscusion of the opponents Revan's beat:
Mandalore/Yusanis- We have no idea how either of these fights went. The game gives no indication of how much the force was involved. At the point when he fought Yusanis he's fallen and gained dark side powers. Abilities like lightning could easily have tipped the scales in his favor regardless of his melee skills. The same goes for mandalore. Now, I'm not going to say that this toatlly negates the feats, but it certainly diminishes their importance.
Bandon- fought with allies, therefore, we have no idea how much Revan contributed in the fight. Yes, I think that Revan is more than powerful enough to have beaten him on his own, but to say he 'pwned' him is baseless
Malak-you've got me here, it was an impressive feat for Revan. Still, without any offical record of the battle, It's impossible to tell how many times Revan had to defeat Malak. I believe you said something similar about the Exile's bout with Sion.
Again, there is no clear indication of Revan's melee skills aside from some quote in KOTOR 2, I think it was in a conversation with Disiple that he makes mention of it. Also, even if Revan does have Pre-cog, it, like the shatterpoints, do not bring instant victory. The Exile, before developing his pre-cog, defeated echani warriors, sans force.
I don't see why you use Sidious' losses as evidence against him, consideraring who they were against after all. Plus, all those quotes prove is that Revan was strong for his time, check Sidious' profile on SW.com, it says the same about him.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
It's the difference of times. KOTOR era is not 40 years past the Sith Wars, during a time when the jedi rallied against the Sith Empire, and then later on rallied against the Mandalorians, and then again in the Jedi Civil War. Saber to saber combat was the rule of the day. This is a far cry from Sidious, who did not have anyone to challenge him before Mace and Yoda. Sidious had no Sith competition to fuel his powers and make him strong. Revan did. Hell, I imagine some of the most battle hardened Sith of all time come from the Hundred Years Darkness time era. War makes warriors, plain and simple.
Now, about the Mandalore and Yusanis battles, yes I agree the details are sketchy. However, I doubt they would be noted by everyone and their mother if REvan had simply zapped both of them or something. I imagine some swordplay was involved.
About Revan's companions, I dunno. The battle can take place in many locations, and a canon event would be nice. All the same, unless you assume that any random combination of REvan's allies could defeat Bandon, he obviously did a good deal of the work.
And lastly, defeating Malak even once in the final battle is tremendous as an undertaking, simply because Malak was buffed up and already uber before then. And Revan obviously had to dance like a jitterbug since Malak is taller than Dooku and has a great lightsaber of quite some length.
Being a skilled duelist in his own right, Mace is also a brilliant fighter-he beat Kar Vastor when he was exhausted and injured...and Kar was a monster. Mace held his own with him in a hand to hand brawl for a bit. MAce also killed a reknowned despotic warrior named Khaleed by moving far too fast to be detected and running him through the heart before he even knew he was dead...Mace is also an accomplished Vaapad user, and that is something Revan could not and would not expect: It'd throw the darkness right back in his face.
However, seriously. It's unfair to inflate Revan's power so much to Sidious while downplaying him and not look who he was facing. Yoda, described as one of, if not the mightiest foe the Darkside had ever known, and a supremely dangerous man like Mace Windu. Who says Palpatine wanted to defeat Mace there either? The generally accepted theory now at SW.com seems to be he faked the lightning part completely....and there is a measure of evidence to that. the lightning he used at first was far weaker than when he was frying Luke or Mace at the end.
Though the idea that Mandalore the Ultimate was an uber warrior is false. At the end of The Sith War, when the Indomitable died, the clans were absolutely devastated. At that point, the Ultimate could have been strongest by default-and he found the helmet and was smart enough to bring the Mandos back together. However, how many people witnessed the Ultimate and Yusanis's deaths?
As for Revan...would battle precog really help him against an enemy with the same ability? Mace's 'Shatterpoint' talent could be just as dangerous. As for Sidious not having people to challenge him...that's statement begins to get frustraitng. Sidious spent long times on Korriban, learning from the spirits of the Ancient Sith in addition to Plageuis. He'd killed Jedi and learned to fight superbly...hell, he killed three of the Order's best warriors in seconds.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'm well aware of Mace's accomplishments, and Ki's and Revan's. This battle is a matter of perception, since the evidence isn't conclusive enough to just make a straight, definate answer. I personally see Revan as being a bigger threat to Mace Windu than Sidious was... reason I brought him up is because Sidious was the only Force user to fight Mace onscreen. Kar Vastor was very powerful, but primitive and undisciplined. And he pretty much tossed Mace around like a ragdoll in unarmed combat, btw. Kar was potentially a bigger threat than anyone Mace had faced up to that point, but in the end was defeated because he was not a jedi or sith. Also, Mace fought Grievous in LOE under interesting circumstances, and would likely have won.
So while I see Mace as very good and dangerous, I don't see him as being so exceptionally good or dangerous that Revan can't contend with him. If all it took was a really good swordsman to defeat Revan, Kavarr would likely have done it long ago, or even Malak who was very good. Obviously he's a lot more dangerous than those two. I see no reason why to believe that Mace would be better adapted to fighting Revan. And I also think of Sidious had been in a different atmosphere he would have WTFpwned Mace using the Force and environment to his advantage.
And lastly, Sidious didn't have any real competition, and having pow-wows with ancient Sith spirits doesn't make you an uber saber god, which is the point I was trying to make. Sidious did not have to fight constantly and for his life every other day like say, a Sith Lord during the Hundred Years Darkness, or a Sith Lord in the Golden Age of the Sith Empire, or even a jedi in the devastating Jedi Civil War. Different circumstances. Would you argue that a modern day swordsmaster is better than a twelfth century swordsman who fought wars, duels, and battles all his adult life?
Mace's fought Grievous a few times, Grievous never walked away unharmed. Now, when did Revan ever have time to learn all his skills? And like I said: the circumstances of the Sidious fight are completely up in the air, tos crewed up choreography or just plain bad scripting. I'm no Sidious fanboy, I like Dooku above him, possibly Vader, you can call me an official Obi-wan and Han Solo fanboy, but based on what I've seen/read of Sidious, I hold him in high esteem. And the Jedi in the Civil War hadn't seen wars in half a century. The Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness are the only good example there. Revan wasn't in the HYD, Revan wasn't in the Sith War, nor was Revan in the Hyperspace War. The era of Sadow was a very bad time for the Sith. They had no experience fighting Jedi, they were cowardly, beauracratic...Kressh even talks of being 'elected' to the post of Dark Lord and whines incessantly when they elect Sadow over him. THIS is pinnacle of the new Empire, the Dark Lord everyone thought'd replace the great Ragnos? I've seen nothing to indicate the ancients were anything special.
Sidious was strong enough to mask himself completely from the Jedi. Experience doesn't mean everything all the time and I could pull out quite a few historical examples. In an actual battle, anything could happen to stunt your fighting ability. Revan had several years of experience, that was it.
And learning everything a Sith holocron has to offer, absorbing its powers and learning from the supposedly uber ancient Sith over the course of decades has to count for quite a bit.
Yes, I understand that war does add a lot of emphasis on combat techniques, and because of that, Revan became the duelist he was. Even so, he doesn't develop the skill that some later masters have. Plus, by this logic, the Bane era sith would be stronger than any other.
As I said with Yusanis and mandalore, Revan's force abilities taint the results of those fights. It's impossible to tell whether he won those fights based on the merits of his melee skills or because of the force abilities. Yes I do think that some melee would take place, but any lack of skill on Revan's part could be made up for through his ability to use the force, something that would be pointless against another force user.
I agree Malak would be a worthy opponent, to defeat him once is impressive, but ultimately not a big deal. Mace defeated Kar Vastor, who's physic was compared to trees
I'm not going to read all those posts right now have to hurry.
But lightsnake did we not already discuss the fight between Revan and Malak, Revan and Yussanis Revan and Mandalore, and did you not come to the same conclusion as I did? All those guys were great fighters and Revan beat them?
And revan storywise really was the most important person in any fight whether he faced them alone or not doesn't matter. As he is often called the only one powerful enough to do it, and storywise we know that, that is true.
Kar was untrained and, although powerful, many of Jedi could have defeated him.
Held is own in hand to hand combat? lmao. He got owned by Kar in that fist fight.
Vapaad ins't the ultimate saber style. Revan, who has Tulak Hord's holocron(the greatest saber duelist known), is a good bit better in lightsaber combat. Note that Revan isn't all dark either, meaning Vapaad won't be throwing darkness in his face.
He ran this guy threw the heart to fast to be seen? Pff. Revan can see things before they happen with precog. He doesn't move that fast.
WTF? Did you see what he was hitting Luke with? I could have done more damage to him with a taser. Luke being hit with more powerful lightning is crap. Also, if you look at what Sidious hit Mace with before he was knocked out the window, it is the same thickness and intensity as what he was hit him with after. No one has ever even come close to showing that Sidious faked the fight since Lucas even said that Mace overpowered Sidious. Of course, Sidious is far from the top, so that doesn't mean Mace would defeat Revan.
A lot. 1. Every Mandalorian I talked to held Revan in high reguard because they saw how Revan killed their greatest. 2. Yusanis and Revan fought in the area just outside the Senate since Revan had just killed some senator.
Any proof that it's just as dangerous? Shatterpoint isn't a precog ability, you don't seem to understand what it really does. Lets see what it is exactly that you think it does. Please give a comprehensive definition for it.
No one was on Korriban to fight Sidious. Name two Jedi Plageuis killed.
Note that Sidous killed 3 of a weaker Order high level guys in only a few seconds, but Malak, who we know to be a good bit weaker then Revan, took out two from a stronger Order in less time. Clone troopers killed Mundi, Koon, and Aayla(guy who could have given the people Sidious killed a run for their money) in the same time.
Who are the other Jedi Sidios personally killed?
My Taekwondo instructors(all three of the main ones) during every sparring class always emphasize the importance of ring time. There are people who have been training for 5 years, but haven't spent much time in the ring who I fight(I have about 20 months of training) who I can defeat because I have been in the ring ten times more then them. It's the same situation here. No matter how much you study, it still won't help you as much as getting out there and doing the real thing.
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Mace didn't defeat Kar, that says a lot. and no, he wasn't 'owned', he put up a good fight but submitted. I want proof that Revan's precog allows him to see things before they happen and that he had Tulak Hord's holocron...
And yes, Luke was being fried powerfully at the end. The damn lightning was crackling through his eyes and mouth. And no, watching the scene now, both lightning intensities are completely different. Moreover, revan had ASSASSINATED the senator...assassinations don't involve cutting a man down in full view
Maul, in Shadow Hunter, reflects that he and Palpatine have killed Jedi before.
If you had taken the time to read the other posts, you'd see why you're going to need a little more evidence. Yussanis and Mandalore were both non-force users, powerful yes, and defeating them is impressive, but that doesn't change that we have no clue if Revan won those fights based on his skills, or his force abilities. Malak, I don't see this as much as a big deal, as Mace could take him as well.
And it's impossibel to assume what Revan's role in those fights were, the mere presence of an ally could be a great boon, so it negate's any fight. And while he is described as the most powerful, it's never said he could do it all on his own.
Mandelorians of that time killed Jedi in one on one Melee fights on planets.. The champions most warriors were unable to do it, but the champions still did. Their energy shields made sure the fights would be a Melee fight. the leader of the Mandelorians was more powerful then these guys, this is because he leads them and only the most powerful can lead.
He has also lead them for more then fourty years of constant war, sometimes against impossible odds. Like in one of Canderous his first battles were they fought against a fleet 10x their size. All they cared about was getting stronger and stronger, and they did. Mandalore could simply not be any less then brilliant as a fighter. Revan killed him fair and sqaure in an honest battle otherwise he would not be respected for it. Also Revan killed Mandalore at Malachor so there would have been a lot of witnesses.
Then Yussanis the greatest Echani general of the moment who has battle pre-cog that allows him to see what his opponent will do before the opponent does it, far more advanced then Jedi pre-cog which isn't bad either. Revan managed to take him down in a Melee fight. An hounarable fight according to the Handmaiden. Who would not consider choking him with the force honourable.
Those fights I was talking about, none of them were one on one... or Three on one for that matter. Bandon had help for instance. However Bandon was more powerful then anybody in their party except for Revan. Even Bastila who is the second most powerful storywise could not match Bandon even two and a half years of training later... Meaning very simply that Bandon could have only been killed by Revan.
the Droids in the Star Forge were able to kill even the most poreful of the order. Bastila does not have that level and would clearly fall to the droids, seeing as she is the second most powerful the others would as well. Guns won't work either, this is clear becuase of their shields, so Revan is again the only one that could have done it. Now keep in mind the droids work in teams of two. Of course its possible that Revan could have killed one and the other two killed the other droid, but that doens't matter without Revan they would be dead.
The Terentak Revan faced he faced alone, force powers wouldn't be of any use and he couldn't have used grenades storywise because they would destroy the building. So again storywise Revan would have had to have killed the Terentak in Sadow his tumb using a lightsaber. Even one of those beasts could destroy powerful Jedi Knights that fought during the time of Exar Kun.
What do we know about Tulak hord other than that he was the best of his time, which was a good 4,000 years before the OT era anyhow. And since when does Revan have his holocron? I remember picking up a couple in Korriban in KOTOR, but both could be given to the head-master for prestige, so unless you're about to bust out a legititment source that says otherwise, we can't assume he has it. Also, as I've said, defeating Mandalore really wasn't all that big a deal.
Now, show me proof that the fight's against Mandalore and Yussanis was all fair and square. The problem is, aside from some assuptions, you can't. Even the handmaidens quote is pointless, as Revan may have only used the force to speed himself up, thus tilting the fight in his favor.
Also, you again are making huge assuptions about Revan's role in those fights, you have zero proof that he won those battles in the way that you describe. Like the Terentak battles, I used grenades and mines, and nothing happend, so you point is, well, pointless.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Mace's fought Grievous a few times, Grievous never walked away unharmed. Now, when did Revan ever have time to learn all his skills?
Uh, the training he had under multiple masters in the jedi order. His combat experience in the Mandalorian Wars. His three years spent away. The couple of years he was leading the Sith during the Jedi Civil War. His actions during the war on behalf of the jedi. That right there is a LOT of experience for someone his age. And considering he is a prodigy and held in respect by all who know of him I think it's foolish to dismiss him quite as easily as you do.
And like I said: the circumstances of the Sidious fight are completely up in the air, tos crewed up choreography or just plain bad scripting. I'm no Sidious fanboy, I like Dooku above him, possibly Vader, you can call me an official Obi-wan and Han Solo fanboy, but based on what I've seen/read of Sidious, I hold him in high esteem.
This might surprise you, but I like Sidious too. And I have a realistic grasp of his powers. I've gone over his fights -many- times, as you can see I've been here nearly a year. And in that time I've debated just about every topic here. The point here is that Mace < Revan. Mace's biggest danger was Sidious, whom he floored with little effort. Unless you have conclusive evidence to the contrary, that's what we have to work with.
And the Jedi in the Civil War hadn't seen wars in half a century.
This is incorrect. The Jedi Council and Republic waged war on the Sith Empire after Sadow fled. It fell ten whole years later. Shortly after were the Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil Wars right after that. This is easily six years of combat experience right there, twice the length of the Clone Wars, and the latter half dealing more with jedi versus sith than perhaps the Schism. The Jedi Order was pushed to the brink of destruction.
The Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness are the only good example there. Revan wasn't in the HYD, Revan wasn't in the Sith War, nor was Revan in the Hyperspace War.
The point remains... Revan lived in times when one's life was decided by the swiftness of another's blade, period. Sidious did not live in mortal fear of his life nor did he fight on many battlegrounds or face off against as many powerful opponents. And again, this is about Mace.
The era of Sadow was a very bad time for the Sith. They had no experience fighting Jedi, they were cowardly, beauracratic...Kressh even talks of being 'elected' to the post of Dark Lord and whines incessantly when they elect Sadow over him. THIS is pinnacle of the new Empire, the Dark Lord everyone thought'd replace the great Ragnos? I've seen nothing to indicate the ancients were anything special.
I'm ignoring this. I already know your stance on the ancient sith and I completely disagree.
Sidious was strong enough to mask himself completely from the Jedi.
So cloak = power? Dooku could do the same, Lightsnake. He held conferences with Sidious on Coruscant and hid himself from Obi-Wan and Anakin in LOE. Hell, Asajj Ventress hid from Obi-Wan in the same room in TCD. This isn't equivalent to power, unless you want to admit that Revan controlled the Star Forge that had a tendency to destroy weak force users, thus Revan can pwn all.
Experience doesn't mean everything all the time and I could pull out quite a few historical examples. In an actual battle, anything could happen to stunt your fighting ability. Revan had several years of experience, that was it.
Experience means a LOT. You obviously know nothing of battle if you say such things.
And learning everything a Sith holocron has to offer, absorbing its powers and learning from the supposedly uber ancient Sith over the course of decades has to count for quite a bit.
Reading a book doesn't mean you know kung fu.
And btw, didn't you say Malak was about equal to Dooku? If Revan can smoke a powered up Malak, why can't he just destroy Mace? Are not Mace and Dooku equals? Actually, I'd argue that Dooku is better than Mace.
It's something that is extremly valuable, since Tulak was stated as the greatest Sith duelist and Ancient Siht duelist were said to make the people who came after them look like children playing with toys. Even if Revan gave it back, when he took out the academy, he would have taken it back.
No one has even come close to proving that defeating Mandalore wasn't a big deal because it was infact, just that, a big deal. The Mandalorians thought it was a huge deal. Huge. Big. Awsome. It was a big deal.
Mace didn't defeat Kar, that says a lot. and no, he wasn't 'owned', he put up a good fight but submitted. I want proof that Revan's precog allows him to see things before they happen and that he had Tulak Hord's holocron...
Yes, he was owned. Go read it again, Kar ripped him apart.
Proof that precog lets people see things before they happen? Go play KOTOR again, it says so. That's why it's called precog .
Revan isn't the kind of person who would leave something like Tulak's holocron behind. It's just not in his character.
And yes, Luke was being fried powerfully at the end. The damn lightning was crackling through his eyes and mouth. And no, watching the scene now, both lightning intensities are completely different. Moreover, revan had ASSASSINATED the senator...assassinations don't involve cutting a man down in full view
He strode right in and killed the man. If no one knew about it, how would Yusanis have known to go fight him?
Crackling threw his eyes and mouth, but from the way he was moving and stuff, a taser, small, hand-held polic device, could have hurt him just as much.
Now you're just BS'ing. The lightning looks exactly the same in both views.
Maul, in Shadow Hunter, reflects that he and Palpatine have killed Jedi before.
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Glentract, you've still yet to show how the holocron would be such a big deal. Kreai's quote doesn't mean anything simply because she was basing the whole 'children with toys' off of the jedi of that era, none of which were Mace's match anyhow. Also, while Fishy did say it was confirmed, I'd still like some quote that says that Revan has it.
And again, Pre-cog does not mean instant victory. The Exile, without having developed his pre-cog, defeated echani trained warriors without the use of the force, at least until he takes on all of them at once.
And when I say that beating mandalore wasn't a big deal, I mean that simply for that sake of Revan's combat skills. Yes, militarily and politically it was huge, but it doesn't elevate Revan any. The same goes for Yussanis.
Let me spell it out for you as simply as possible. Ancient Sith were better then KOTOR Jedi. KOTOR Jedi were better then PT Jedi. That means Ancient Sith were better PT Jedi. Revan has the teaching's of the people who are better then PT Jedi. Do you get it? Revan is better PT Jedi.
Doesn't mean instant victory, but makes him a lot better.
Just because he wasn't using actual forec powers doesn't mean he wasn't using the force to enhance his body.
How? If defeating someone doesn't make that person more impressive, what has Mace ever done? The logic you are tying to use sucks. It makes no sense and simply does not work.
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pb[Maul, in Shadow Hunter, reflects that he and Palpatine have killed Jedi before. [/b]
Looks like I missed this in one of my former post. When did he say that? When did he specify the circumstances of the battle? When did he say that it was just Palpatine and not Palpatine ordering Maul to kill someone or that Palpatine didn't higher bounty hunters?=
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Jan 7th, 2006 05:22 PM
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