You think Malak, even a Malak powered by the Star Forge, would be a challenge for Exar Kun? I submit that beating Vodo's ass within a minute after deciding to fight seriously is a far greater achievement than beating Darth "Oh shit, my jaw!" Malak.
And Malak beat Kavar, the "greatest fighter" of a weakened Jedi order that had lost the vast Ossus knowledge base and virtually every known ancient Jedi master except for Thon 40 years earlier. Yeah, if I were in a karate class with 7 year olds I'd be the greatest fighter as well. KOTOR-era Jedi can't compare with Sith War-era Jedi.
And I'm tired of this precognition bullshit. Do you know what "Jedi reflexes" are?PRECOGNITION.Every damned Jedi has precognition inside and out of battle. Hell, TPM Anakin had it and he was untrained.
And a man trained in Teras Kasi beat a Jedi in an unarmed fight. So? You continually act as if Exar doesn't have precognition whatsoever.
More like "unproven, really."
And easily countered with the fact that Exar was the greatest of his greater era.
Unproven, not canon. Storyline-wise, Revan might never even have used his lightsaber during KOTOR. Why? Because gameplay mechanics don't enter in to canon.
Your estimation is way off. If I had to put in an analogy, Exar Kun would be the Dooku to Revan's AOTC Anakin.
Revan is screwed either way.
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IKC I hate to say this, but this argument is useless your an Exar fanboy... I might be a Revan fanboy without noticing it overestimating him. But seriously. You are just throwing away arguments for Revan because you say Exar kun his time and Jedi > Revan his time Jedi. Along with the entire pre-cog argument becuase you think that Echani pre-cog isn't special even though its said that it is.
A weakened order? A lot of people prosper even after defeat, because they have to rebuild because they lived in fear, in a constant threat. They would have had every reason to train more and be more powerful. The lose of knowledge on Osus was painful without any doubt, it was a great loss but the loss of knowledge does not suddenly make the Jedi Order a lot weaker. It just means they miss knowledge, knowledge that could still have been given over by mouth to mouth advertising and the like.
Exar beat Vodo, was Vodo a lightsaber prodigy the greatest lightsaber user of his era? Even so, are you sure Revan could not have done the same?
Just because Mace didn't live for a 100 years or more doesn't mean he is weak.
Echani Pre-Cog is greater then Jedi Pre-Cog. QGJ said that Jedi reflexes are like looking into the future they are so good that sometimes it seems you can see events happen before they happen. This is different then visions of the future some Jedi had. Revan in a fight would really be able to look in the future, superior to the reflexes of Exar Kun which are just super fast reflexes making it seem like he can see into the future.
Revan fighting without a lightsaber? We see him standing over Malak with a lightsaber, we know he wanted to challenge the Jedi that boarded his ship with a lightsaber we know his greatest cannon skill is lightsaber fighting, so if he didn't use a lightsaber in Kotor, he must have been damned good with the force. To use it so much and strong enough to defeat even animals that are immune to force attacks?
Now i'm actually not even going into a debate with you about this in this thread, start a new one if you'd like otherwise lets just drop it.
Do you understand what the loss of Ossus and all the known ancient masters even means, Fishy? It means the Jedi Order became vastly less powerful. The reason Kun destroyed Ossus is so that he could raid their knowledge in the confusing hours before the supernova hit the planet. Obviously their knowledge was extraordinarily valuable, especially when you consider that Kun sacrificed Naga Sadow's ship (you know, the one you can use to blow up stars?) to get it.
The efforts of the Jedi to save their knowledge was described by the omniscient narrator as such:
"A thousand years of Jedi history must be packed and rescued in only a few hours. They have no time to sort or sift out the most precious items... The emergency efforts of the Jedi can barely scratch the surface of the knowledge entombed on Ossus."
Even the relatively small amount of items Exar and his Massassi managed to recover and put into his ship was described as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use," by the narrator (emphasis mine).
The ancient Jedi that sat on the Ossus council were all aliens. The closest one to being human was 200 year-old Arca, who died earlier. Vodo and Odan-Urr were killed by Kun himself. Ood rooted himself to Ossus, making him essentially dead to the galaxy. 20 knights plus Crado were sent to assassinate the masters, and the only one we knew failed was Oss Wilum against Master Thon.
It's as if you instakilled the TPM Council plus Qui-Gon and everyone of his level. Then you blow up the Jedi Temple on Coruscant while it's empty. A Jedi order that suffers those kind of losses is going to be crippled for a long time.
This is beside the fact that KOTOR-era Jedi display none of the powers of Sith War-era Jedi. Any KOTOR-era Jedi make wooden sticks more powerful than a lightsaber? Have they blocked blasts from starfighters using just the force? Have they dismantled a great multitude of droids by essentially tugging at the fastenings holding them together as Arca did on Deneba? Have any of them singlehandedly blocked someone from the Force?
Answer to all of these is a great big no, especially since there's not even any mention of Sith War-era Jedi during KOTOR. You have to prove that their knowledge was passed on, because with no knowledge base and all but one of the most ancient and powerful Masters dead, where the hell are they going to learn it?
Perhaps you're forgetting that Vodo had such confidence in his abilities that he confronted Exar Kun armed with a stick, a stick that had already been broken before. I'd say Vodo has a damned good chance of taking down Revan, being the Yoda of his time and all.
But it also doesn't mean he can't possibly have learned as much as someone that old. And if the Jedi Order of the PT didn't have any of the long-lived aliens that they had, how effective do you think they would have been? More effective, or less?
Wrong. Jinn said (about untrained Anakin) "he sees things before they happen." That is the very definition of precognition and it is a trait all force sensitives share. He did not use the word "like." Period.
Ergo, Revan has no great advantage over Exar Kun. That coupled with the fact that Kun's style and weapon are both unique and that he was able to beat the shit out of the de facto grandmaster make Exar Revan's superior in force and saber combat.
Apparently you misinterpreted my post. I said during KOTOR. One very well could have went through the entire game using mundane melee weapons and blasters. Ergo, it is not canon that Revan used lightsabers at any point during KOTOR.
That is what this thread is for, Fishy.
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Excuse me IKC. But if a small amount of knowledge from Ossus is "more wealth and knowledge than he (Kun) can ever use" and the Jedi seem to have saved more than Kun how much would the other loss affect their power ? If just a small amount of the knowledge stored their is "more than Exar can ever use" how would a Jedi's personal power suffer great from the loss of Ossus ? Technicall no Jedi would be able to learn everything their and just a small amount of the knowledge there is more than a single person can ever use.
You did notice how most Jedi were killed during ROTS and just 40 years later (what a surprise) you have the NJO with it's rediculous overpowered force users. Doesn't seem to me if something like that would stop the Jedi for long or essentialy weaken them.
Blocking fire: can be done via force shield - so they could have done it. Destroying droids ? I remember that power from KotoR. Blocking somebody from the Force ? Wasn't that what the masters wanted to do to the Exile before Kreia's little intervention ? So that can also be done.
On the same level I could ask you if we've ever seen somebody absorbing Sith Lightning with his bare hands and then state that Yoda > all Jedi before and after him. That would be stupid, wouldn't it ?
Err...IKC. We have seen that 100s or 1000s of Jedi were present above Yavin 4 to finally confront Kun and all of them survived. So I really don't see all knowledge from that era getting lost.
And notice how easily Kun wasted Vodo...really...
What has "age" to do with "efficiency" ? 50 year old Mace Windu kicked Sidious ass. 900 year old Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. Hmm...who was more effective ? Arca, Vodo, Odan-Urr...all that nice old people died and sometimes in very stupid ways (Arca). If their is a continuity in SW than it's "young prodigy kicks old wise guy".
It's pretty clear that Anakin could see things before they happen (Padme's death) but Yoda mentioned several times that the future is always "moving" and that not everything might be revealed.
But I'm quite confused why they go and emphasize that Revan learned Echani Battle-precog and how special that was when it wasn't different from "normal Jedi abilities".
I agree with that...
No...you can't go through the entire game using normal melee weapons and blasters since you have to construct your own lightsaber and wield it. And it's stated that Revan defeated Malak in a lightsaber duel and he didn't shot him with a blaster or cut him into pieces with a vibroblade.
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Nai, the SW.com databank says that almost all of PT jedi lightsaber sparring occured in the jedi temple itself. They weren't exactly saber to saber champions. This would contradict the idea of PT jedi being a "Golden Age" of lightsaber fighting, at least. As for knowledge, much was lost. That's evident. We don't have knowledge from two thousand years ago in most instances in our own world... what makes you think the majority of jedi teachings from 4000 years prior survived until the PT and that it was utilized?
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I am going to have to go with Revan on this one for the simple fact that I believe Revan was the chosen one of his time.. He was incredibly powerful as a jedi and even more powerful as a Sith. The reason I call him the chosen one is because he took it upon himself to be trained in the dark ways just to have a shot at defeating the ancient sith empire. Now that's an enormous task. We'll see Revan's true power when KOTOR III comes out.
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Anakin was the "chosen one" of his time. He was ambitious and wanted to learn (hence why he followed Palpatine), had immense potential, and it was never shown definitively that he amounted to anything.
I'd give it to Kun because we see far higher on-panel feats and there is no premise for extrapolation for Revan.
Illustrious, you should also give it to Kun also because Revan came from a Jedi Order that was crippled by Exar Kun and because Kun is shown to have gathered far more Force knowledge than Revan.
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While that is a good bit to have in mind, it doesn't neccessarily mean Revan is weaker. After all, he may come to have force potential greater or equal to.
Yes, but then Kun was described (in the questionable sourcebook, but I found this out during the Lightsnake wars) as the single most powerful force user of the time. So it's hard to imagine that just 40 years later you'd have another single entity up to his level.
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Why? Some of the greatest fighters ever lived in the same era (Hector, Achilles) just to name a few. Okay the second is way above Hector but still.
The two greatest wars this planet has seen were fought in the same 50 years. In fact the second one started only 21 years after the first one and it was far more effective, and brought forward greater and at the very least far more known generals.
Really there is no reason to assume that everybody 40 years later would just be a hell of a lot weaker when there is no evidence for it at all.
Uh, there's plenty of evidence for it, Fishy, especially when their mini-culture was crippled just 40 years earlier. Combine that with the fact that their on-screen feats can't compare with those of the Sith War and you've got a weaker era.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Killing three Jedi Masters with a wave of a hand can not compare to what they did earlier?
And crippled? They lost Osus sure thats painful but they still had many Jedi that knew some of those things, people like Kreia, Vrook, Vandar. Most of the people from that time survived, sure it caused a lot of damage but nothing they couldn't recover from in 40 years. Entire nations recovered from destruction in 40 years and then started conquering again. Really losing Osus is not enough of a reason to just assume the galaxy and the jedi became a hell of a lot weaker.
Not really. It would depend on how powerful those Masters even were.
That's a laugh. Vandar aside (he was a whill, right?), those individuals were probably just at knight level during the Sith War.
That plus you're assuming the positive, which you generally shouldn't do without evidence.
As for Vandar, he wasn't shown on the many pictures of the council during TSW. He wasn't, apparently, one of the old masters. It's therefore hard for me to accept that he had the same access to knowledge they did.
Actually I just argued that the Jedi, not the Republic, were weaker in KOTOR than during the Sith War.
Yes, most Jedi from that time survived, but the cream of the crop was virtually annihilated. As well, their largest collection of knowledge was consumed in a supernova.
Really, the Jedi are no different from the Sith in this regard. They simply can't completely recover from devastating losses such as those. Things can and did get lost.
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They were on the highest council, this is like me asking you to prove how powerful Vodo or the other masters were. There is enough to show they were powerful not as powerful as those guys but those guys don't have a lot of evidence supporting their power either.
there were many others that survived as well, knowledge got past on that is for sure. There is no doubting that, perhaps not all knowledge that would be impossible, maybe not even as close to 10% but thats still more then Exar Kun had, it doesn't really matter. Exar Kun couldn't learn all the knowledge there none of the Jedi Could, and all they learned could have been past on. I imagine it would be one of the most important things for the Jedi to do, pass on the knowledge.
I agree the masters of the order were dead, at least some of them. Still a lot of smart and powerful masters could have survived the era and the time, knowledge could have get past on and Osus although very important wasn't the only source of knowledge. Besides if you wish to argue knowledge only, Revan had more access to Dark Side knowledge then Exar Kun did.
Kun may have plundered Korriban but he never found the star Maps or at least didn't have the brains to go after it, Revan did. Kun never got into Ajunta Pall his tomb either, he never found Kressh his tomb (then again neither did Revan so it doesn't matter really) but just to show a lot of knowledge was still left untouched for Revan and then Malachor V. Atris had an entire room filled with what Zez describes as the "Last of the Jedi teachings". Coruscant had also been lost and still she had enough to fill an entire room with holocrons and god knows what else.
Painful as the lose of knowledge was it couldn't have destroyed the order, at least not in such a short time. If anything the lose of knowledge would be felt even harder a hundred years later, but by that time all of the Jedi teachings were lost so it doesn't really matter.
And on the deaths of the most powerful of the order, yes sure that must have hurt. But in the PT the most powerful of the order died not much later you had Luke and his order that surpassed them. Exar Kun could beat those guys when he was far younger, i'm not saying the Kotor Masters were as powerful as those guys but its a strange assumption to make when you say the entire order was just a hell of a lot weaker. Weaker yes, but does that make them worse fighters or force users? I have my doubts.
Except if you asked me to say how powerful the Sith War masters were, I'd answer "A hell of a lot more ancient and powerful than KOTOR ones."
More martial era? Check.
Ossus knowledge base? Check.
Mostly aliens and therefore longer-lived than the nearly all-human KOTOR council? Check check check.
Greater displayed feats (blocking one from the force singlehandedly, Vodo's staff trick, dispelling Sith illusions)? Check again.
TSW makes it quite clear that many of the Jedi Masters of the Old Order were assassinated. A group of three knights (Qrrl Toq, Dace Diath, and Shoanes Culu) found eight murdered masters by themselves.
You have to prove that their knowledge was passed on. With the destruction of Ossus, it's very unlikely.
No, many of them (one could even argue most) were dead. And given that there's no mention of any Jedi master survivors of the Sith War during KOTOR, it may be safe to assume that none of them except Thon survived.
You have to prove what knowledge got passed on, if any.
And please, enlighten me: How did Revan obtain more Dark Side knowledge than Exar Kun, despite the fact that Kun's trove of knowledge was described by the narrator as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use."
So Kun beats Revan to Korriban by 40 years yet he learns less from Korriban than Revan did? Right...
You should do what we call some proving up. Prove that Revan learned more from Korriban than Exar Kun.
And Atris' room? Was Atris' room described by someone omniscient as as much knowledge as Exar's trove? Do you realize Exar Kun had multiple temples in which the works of Naga Sadow and his followers were stored away?
Hell, I'll take Yavin IV's knowledge over Malachor V's any day.
I never said it would destroy the order, but it did cripple it and it remained so in the time of KOTOR.
So your one instance of an Order coming back guarantees the same results every time, nevermind that circumstances are different? What a crock. Check the beginning of this post for refutation.
Weaker, meaning they were weaker fighters and Force users. How could they not be? The best of their numbers were destroyed and their works all but obliterated.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Feb 10th, 2006 04:52 PM
