Your assertion: The Jedi Prince books (they're not actually titled that) are canon.
My assertion: They are not.
Your backup: LFL didn't declare them non-canon.
My backup: Absurdities and contradictions of established (and later) canon occur repeatedly throughout the books. The events depicted in the books are not referenced in any other EU primary source material.
And again you've provided proof that "glimpsing at my argument with your head up your ass" doesn't equal "reading comprehension."
The examples I excerpted were from the glossaries at the end of each book. Ergo, they were stated by the omniscient narrator and are not the words of a fallible third party calling another third party by a term of endearment.
False analogy, logical fallacy.
See above. He is declared by the omniscient narrator and the plot to be his literal son.
False premise. Palpatine doesn't need heirs, as we see in DE.
Except she is literally declared by the glossary (i.e. infallible party) to be a Jedi Princess. Your argument falls apart.
It's not clearly stated? Oh, I guess I must not have read it when in the back of the last three books they repeatedly name him as Palpatine's biological son, not to mention the frequency with which they bring up this fact in the book itself.
Except it's directly stated in the book. To quote C-3P0:
"A mutant - part human, part alien. Quite surprising. I've certainly never heard any gossip that Emperor Palpatine had a son by a three-eyed alien woman."
Huh. Looks like the books contradict you at every turn.
Given that DE shows he doesn't need heirs, that his body has been "ravaged by the Dark Side," and his supposed racism against non-humans, it certainly is an absurd notion to think Palpatine would canonically have sex with an alien woman to produce a three-eyed mutant heir to his throne.
Oh wow, he was mentioned. And I'm sure he struck fear into the heart of the New Rep... oh, wait. He was a bit player? Played a minor role in the book? Wow.
Ad hominem, logical fallacy. I'm sorry we all can't remember every picayune detail of a book we read eight years ago like you can, Nai, oh God of Star Wars Lore.
Irrelevant misdirection. I don't care how much LFL twists and turns to try and force the square peg of these six books into the round hole of canon as a whole, the series has yet to be firmly established into canon other than this "Kadann in this series was a fake! OMGWTFBBQ!" point you seem to be attempting.
Yeah Nai. My posts disputing the authenticity of your usage of non-canon children's books in a canonical argument are "attacks."
Irrelevant misdirection, argument from ignorance. An attempt at ad hominem?
*hint* Maybe you should back away from the Profundus Maximus School of Debate. *hint*
So is the "Droids" cartoon canon now? How about "Ewoks?"
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
The Jedi Prince series has been reconned more than once untill LSL finally found it to their liking.
And it is C-Canon so really I don't see the point of arguing that it isn't canon just because it's stupid. Sure the series sucked, but that doesn't mean it isn't canon.
EU is full of contradictons and LSL tries to work those out. That's why they reconned the Jedi Prince books in the first place. They made some changes and fixed some minor details, but that's it.
I mean if canon was decided by what contradicts what within then we might as well declare KOTOR non-canon since it contradicts parts of TOTJ.
The larger point is that almost the entirety of the series cannot fit inside canon as a whole as it is constructed at this point in time. Like I said, sure, LFL has twisted and turned to try and force it into canon but that doesn't mean they've succeeded.
They'll have succeeded if they can answer this question: What happened during that time?
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
No. In this case:
Your assertion (implied): The books do pocess the same level of canon than the "Choose Your Own Adventure" Star Wars books have.
Your backup:
None. Since the said "Choose Your Own Adventure" books are based on the OT trilogy and the choices of the reader, acting as one of the main character, can result in alternate endings contradicting G-Canon. Theirfore their are N-Canon per definition.
Because of that:
Argumentum ad absurdum - trying to make an absurd statement then use the reaction
Fallacia non causae ut causae - trying to draw own conclusion from inconclusive statement "Because N-Canon is non-canon and I suggest the books to be N-Canon when they are C-Canon they must be N-Canon."
Petitio principii - trying to postulate a thesis that doesn't fit the topic
argumentum ad auditores - trying to place my assertion into an rediculous light to convince other readers of your opinion.
My assertion:
The book aren't completely N-Canon.
My backup:
They aren't completely contradicted and LFL even tried to incorporate them into the actual timeline in contrary to the "real" N-Canon sources (Infinities, RPG stats). I've never seen something like "Well...Sidious was powerful and defeated Yoda in ROTS but because Yoda is level 20 and has a +20 to his defence roll, as well as a +19 attack roll he should have pwned him easily".
Since when is the glossary written by the omniscient narrator ? They are outside the actual text. Appeal to (non-existing) authority.
Yes. See above.
And of course he doesn't need or like sex either. He must be gay or completely asexual
And for the third time: The glossary isn't an infallible party or accurate or anything else.
Quotes by omniscient narrator please.
Yes. Looks like the fallible third party - namely C-3PO - equipped with all possible knowledge of Triclops must be absolutely correct and infallible on a topic he knows jack shit about. Because he's omniscient and infallible in general. Example ? Beginning of ANH: "We are doomed." Great. First three words he speaks and he's making a false statement.
Your ignorance of some facts is astonishing. So he had sex with an alien woman who must have looked like a human woman with the only "mistake" of having an additional eye on the back of her head and this must have happened to produce heirs since "having sex for fun" is an unknown concept in the SW universe.
Nice idea to counter an ad hominem argument with another ad hominem argument. Nice appeals to majority here you = "nobody" (when it comes to remembering a character) and you = "we all" (when it comes to not remembering a character). This is great.
Oh lets see:
- they shorted the timeline of the story to fit them into the overall EU timeline
- they introduced Ysanna Isard to create another link to the timeline
- they kept mentioning the characters in other publications
And because of some contradictions (and I'm talking about "in universe" contradictions and not those happening in your head) the entire series must be labelled N-Canon. Their are contradictions within the movies. Want to label them N-Canon now, too ? There are contradictions in Lucas own words ? N-Canon ? The TOTJ comics partially contradict the NEC - wanna label them N-Canon ? So everything is N-Canon. Ok.
Your post disputing the authenticity of my your usage of children's books that you yourself labelled N-Canon is nothing but playing the Sophist.
Translation: "I don't know what you are talking about so I will just try to use another example of poor polemics to cover up my lack of knowledge."
Completely fits your way to argue, dude. Just in case you didn't notice. And by the way: Read and get enlightened. But watch out - it was written by one of that crappy German philosophers. Wenn der Schopenhauer sich die Kante gibt, dann tritt die schillernde Persönlichkeit draußen in den Hegel. Nietzsche - Gesundheit.
As I said before. What is considered "canon" is up to Lucas and LFL - not to me or you unless you have those instances contradicting theirselves (like the date set for the founding of the Sith Empire) or information given by fallible sources.
For example "Caravan of Courage" and "The Battle for Endor" both were written and edited by Lucas himself. They are child movies, yes, but what does that say about their level of canon ? They do belong to the SW universe and they were written by Lucas himself and this says "G-Canon". The animated series and the Marvel Comics ? I don't know. I watched that stuff when I was 4 or 5 years old so I can't tell you much about contradictions or canon level. But given that I don't know anything happening on Endor during the movie (or before ESB / between ESB and ROTJ) that would be able to contradict them and apparently sw.com uses them as source I would think they are C-Canon. I could be wrong with that guess.
They can do that which was the reason for putting the entirety of the series into one year. The point here (and you ignored that) is that the entire background information about Triclops is given out by the fake Kadann who wanted to gain control about the remaining parts of the Empire. Therefore a supposed son of Sidious would be perfect. The same tactic was used by Trioculus. Or let's say it's used by Kadann again since he gives the prophey that the next Emperor will find the Hand of Darth Vader he lost in the duel on the second death star (of course this thing lands somewhere unscratched and was found. What else ? It just fell into the reactor...). And whoops...Trioculus shows up. Yeah, right.
So this entire story can be seen as a plot created by the false Kadann to gain control over the remains of the Empire, including the notion that Triclops was the Emperor's son. Or he was Palpatine's son and in this case I'd like to see the canon source saying "Palpatine never had sex" because Lucas didn't even imagine the Jedi to live in celibacy.
"No attachment" is not the same as "no sex" and "I joined the Dark Side" doesn't mean "I'm impotent" as well as "I must obey my master" doesn't mean "Time for another 'Darth Sanchez' followed by 'lightsaber polishing'".
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Point: These six books are no more canon than "Droids."
An incorrect one in the context in which you used it (i.e. bringing up Ken and the "Lost City" bullshit at all). If you were dealing strictly with what little LFL has hammered into canon from these books it wouldn't be a problem.
Except the vast majority of the characters and the plot itself are contradicted (and what isn't contradicted is almost never referenced outside of the series). The only element you can muster out of the entire book series is Kadann - and it turns out he was a fraud anyway!
Oh, they're outside the actual text? That's why they're in the book, right?
By your logic, the author's synopsis dictating much of Ragnos' power is outside the text and thus irrelevant and non-canon. At least mine were in the book itself.
They stand. Nice try.
The glossary will do.
As will the actual plot, given that Kadann uses the Jedi City's computer to relay to Ken the secret of his birth (his parents were Kendalina and Triclops, his grandfather Palpatine). And it's not as if Kadann was trying to fool him - the guardian droid Dee-Jay confirms the story.
It's established. Perhaps you should read the material. Maybe then you'll realize how ridiculously non-canon the vast majority of it is.
Appeal to ridicule. Arguing from ignorance.
He was speaking about Trioculus, actually, and he was more-so explaining what a mutant was - a human/alien hybrid.
"A mutant - part human, part alien."
QED
Oh yeah Nai. Because we know Palpatine gets his jollies from casual sex all the time. Man, he couldn't get enough of it. I guess that's why we never heard of him doing it.
No, Nai, it's your ignorance of this children's story you keep trying to establish as canon that's astounding.
Appeal to ridicule.
Work on your reading comprehension. I'd start with understanding sarcasm first.
You elevate nitpicking every petty statement (even those that are not necessarily part of the argument as a whole) to an industry.
- BFD
- Again, BFD. I like how Ysanne Isard doesn't much respond to, care about, or even acknowledge the existence of any mysterious Kadann character in other publications.
- "The other characters?" You mean Kadann? Because he's pretty much the only one that gets brought up with anything remotely close to regularity.
See, the others are a little too non-canon to jam into the larger storyline.
Strawman argument. Argumentum ad absurdum.
They are not canon mostly because they contradict G-Canon and other, more established (meaning more voluminous at the least) C-Canon. Examples:
Palpatine having a mutant son.
Zorba the Hutt being dropped into the sarlacc (the ROTJ one)... despite the fact that Boba Fett blew it up and the sarlacc hadn't fully recovered for years afterwards.
The very existence of the City on Yavin IV. Oh yeah, I'm sure Naga Sadow, the Massassi, and Exar Kun didn't find shit for a combined total of five thousand years of their presence on the moon.
Yeah, right.
Ad hominem.
Furthermore, the sentence (if you can call it that) doesn't even make sense in English.
No, Translation: You're attempting to appear more intelligent than you actually are by repeatedly throwing out how well-read you are and how many languages you can pull words from. I call you on being a blowhard and a "Profundus Maximus."
Your attempts to belittle me based on irrelevant material only serve to show how weak you are.
Huge irrelevant misdirection, but I like how you ignored "Droids," another children's piece.
I also like how my sources (well, just one - C3P0 - speaking on a subject of how mutants come about) are fallible but, to pull ad hominem tu quoque, the word of a fallible third party making a metaphor is absolute.
Your only consistency is inconsistency.
Factual error. The background information is confirmed by the databases in the Jedi City as well as reinforced by common rumor (at least in the series) that the Emperor had a three-eyed son.
Oh, and Kadann didn't need Triclops for much of anything. He already ruled the Empire (minus the pathetic moffs who didn't seem to have forces of their own) by declaring that the "Dark One of ancient times" spoke through him.
Get a better grasp of the material before you go trying to declare them canon so that you can use convenient facts from them.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
By your personal opinion. That's it. Period.
If you want to deal with things LFL and Lucas have strictly hammered into canon, Vader would tool Exar Kun and ROTJ Luke would bring down ancient Sith Lords because "t3h m0v1e5 aRe t3h h1ghest level of canon".
You can't use the term "canon" like you want sort the different sources into different categories based on the criteria "Where does IKC want to put the stuff" and "How does the stuff fit into IKC's personal view of the SW universe". Let people who dislike the EU anyways judge the EU (maybe ask anomaly for details) and they can give you dozens of contradictions in every EU source. Again: All N-Canon ?
What is contradicted and by what sources ? Go by the own definition of canon and you will find the little thing called S-Canon.
"S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories. Many of the materials labelled as S-canon are older sources which may or may not fit within the continuity, but which have not been fully evaluated prior to inclusion in the Holocron database."
So have you any C-canon or G-canon source directly stating that Palpatine couldn't have had a son directly contradicting the series ? No ? Than this can be considered canon.
Do you have any C-canon or G-canon source directly stating that the Lost City of the Jedi couldn't have existed ? No. What you have is suggestions and please consider the following facts: Yavin 4 is an planetoid with 4 different continents, mostly covered by jungle. What do you think how high is the posibility that
a) Sadow and a relative small group of his Massassi landing on continent X will casually discover a hidden Jedi facility that was abandoned millenia before they reached the place ?
b) Freedon Nadd doing so while he probably stayed close to Sadow to train in the ways of the Dark Side ?
c) Exar Kun staying close to (or within) the Massassi temples (as living being as well as in his spirit form) discovering the place ?
d) Luke using / mentioning the place again after he partitially destroyed it and the only usable stuff (the computer) was destroyed too when he had all the nice temples for his Jedi Order ?
If you want to go by the reason "the material is only shown in one series" I can do the same: The "Temple of the Blueleaf Cluster" is just mentioned in "I, Jedi" so is it non-existant ? You have the "Temple of the Woolamander" in the Young Jedi Knight series. And apparently nobody even stepped into it for 11 years despite the fact that it was just beneath the "Blueleaf Temple" and just a small river seperated it from the Great Temple.
Can you please tell me how a computer on a hidden location and a droid on the same location would have gained knowledge about Ken's birth and even more the origin of Triclops and Ken's mother ? Logically it must have been installed past Ken's birth, right ? And that leaves only two people to do it: The Jedi that took Ken to the place (most likely Obi-Wan) or Kadann (trying to bullshit his way through).
And just think of the following. The story happens in 5 ABY. Ken is 12 meaning he was born in 7 BBY and unless Triclops was 12 years or younger when he became father he himself must have been born before ROTS most likely even before the Clone Wars started.
See holocron entry for S-Canon. Unless a particular event is not directly contradicted by higher level canon (C-Canon, G-Canon) even if the overall storyline seems to be messed the non-contradictional parts are counted as canon. And canon would be:
"N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), most game stats, fanon, fanfiction (eg. custom made movies like Revelations and Pink Five), and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm."
There you go.
Oh come on, IKC. This "I exeggerate your statement up to the point I can use it against you" play should be beyond you.
I never saw Nomi and Andur Sunrider "doing it" and we have Vima.
I never saw Anakin and Padme "dancing between the sheets" and we have Luke and Leia.
I never saw Ki-Adi-Mundi "play hide and seek with the one-eyed trouser snake" with one of his four wives and still he had seven daughters.
I (luckily) never saw Vima-Da-Boda's "playing birds and bees" and still we had Neema-Da-Boda.
And I never saw Leia riding Han's "old bone rollercoaster" and still we have Jacen, Jaina and Anakin.
The point is: Sexual intercourse just happens in the SW universe and the mere fact that we never see person X (Sidious) doing it doesn't mean he didn't. Using that as an argument we won't have that many visible proofs of said thing happening in the EU.
I try to establish it as S-Canon as I basically said before. Do you have a C-Canon or G-Canon source with a storyline happening in 7 BBY which made it impossible for Obi-Wan to take a child from Kessel and place it in the Lost City or do you have a C/G-Canon source which places events in the year 5 ABY directly contradicting the events shown in the series ?
The contradiction is where exactly ? Did I miss the "And...aside of all that stuff happening here, I just wanted to say that Palpatine did never had a mutant son" line in some of the sources ? It doesn't fit your picture of Sidious. It does fit Lucas picture about everybody in the SW universe (even Jedi). Who has more authority here ?
Is this why the Hutt was vomited out into the desert night instead of "finding a new definition of pain and suffering" while being "slowly digested over a thousand years" ? Sure the Sarlacc was damaged but I didn't see the quote saying it didn't recover for years and I don't see a point in assuming that it shouldn't have been able to "get a Hutt thrown into it" and then "not eat this Hutt but vomiting him into the desert".
See above. The fact that some peole are living on a nearly earth-sized planet having 4 continents and being covered with jungle surely helps when it comes to hiding a base that was left 5,000 years before Sadow came to Yavin 4.
How many things you can discover if you built temples on location X, worship Sadow as a god on said location (Massassi) come to visit Sadow on said location (Nadd) or wander around as a Sith spirit on said location (Kun) ?
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Yes. Allright. Shall I give you some information about the German educational system or do you want to fetch it yourself before starting such dumb-ass flame attempts, "cowboy".
And then you can live with the fact that I had to go through 9 years of learning English (grades 5-13), 5 years of Latin (grades 7-11), 3 years of Spanish (grades 11-13) and - just for fun - 2 years of Ancient Greek.
And since we have that nice subject called "philosophy" as obligatory subject if you don't participate in the religious education (choice given to you from the age of 14) I had to do that in grades 11-13 too.
Add 3 years of University education (medieval history, German linguistics, philosophy) on top of that (including learning some Sanskrit and Islandic) and the result is me.
Probably you did notice that I type that stuff here in a foreign language. If that's not enough I can hand you scans of my school reports, my identity card, my student card and performance records (University). If I am a blowhard you are the equivalent of a paramecium that has blow up itself to the size of an elephant and is about to explode every second with somebody that had "real" education shows up. Ah yes..."ad hominem"...haha.
And it's nice how you keep replying with personal insults. I attack you knowledge you show. You attack an unknown and missinterprete this as an attack "ad hominem". And then instead of keeping your self-estimated superiority you reply with the same stuff you accuse me to use. What about watching ANH again and find the answer to following question: "Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?" (ANH Kenobi).
You win, I lose.
I'm tired of debating a topic that isn't coming close to the original topic because Mr. IKC has forgotten to take his pills. I said this once and I say it again: Sophistic arguments should be beyond you. But ok. You receive my todays A.A.I.S.S reward and that's it.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Wow, I think I came back a little late...when the Jedi Prince series was written, no doubt Triclops was intended to be Palpatine's son...however, the majority of authors have retconned and rewritten that series the hell out of existence. The Kadann we see there isn't even the real Kadann now....actually, I'm also pretty sure Boba killed the Sarlaac when he blew its side open. That's from the Mandalorian Armor trilogy, and Dengar's short story.
Even Palps had to know that everything ends sometime. There is no way the Empire would have lasted 10,000 years... unless something crazy happened.
The Republic, something far weaker than the Galactic Empire stood in power for 25,000 years. Had Palpatine not been overconfident at the Battle of Endor, or had Luke been less lucky at the Battle of Yavin, the Alliance would have been destroyed the Empire would be supreme, until new rebels pop up.
Palpatine's largest issue was he favored extreme cruelty and brutality to his subjects...instead of demonizing Tarkin, the Imperials tried to cover Alderaan up and pin it on the Rebels.
i dont think old ben and vader could win. their old, like dooku, but they havent had need to keep up their saber skills to the degree as dooku had during ep 3. obi wan cant even spar with anyone without revealing himself as a jedi. vader is slowerbut stronger, dooku is too fast and precise. while vader than spar and keep at a high degree of saber skill, there is no need for it, and other duties probably keep him from it. while their both still great duelists, in their old age they just havent kept the degree of skill dooku has.
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
Vader has been keeping up with his practice, and has been learning from Sidious for the past twenty years. Vader is an exceptional duelist as seen in many comics, especially Crimson Empire. His knowledge of the dark side is far more than Dooku. Also, when you add Kenobi, Ben has more knowledge of the lightside. Vader takes him in a duel while Kenobi attacks with the force. Together, they rip him apart. In EU, Vader alone has shown us much more impressive powers than Dooku. This computer in my Computer Applications class can't go to swcomics.com, and I have a project to work on later at home, I'll post some links at a later point.
I wish to note that the Jedi Prince series has been made part of EU...retconning doesn't mean they took bits and pieces, it means they took the whole thing and told us other things in addition to make it fit.
Apr 29th, 2006 04:42 AM
