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h2h is a lot of things depending on your personal definition. 2 boxers fight h2h speed obviously plays a huge role, as does skill and power and ability to absorb punishment.
you'd have to limit supes to fighting like hercules can fight to get herc a chance in the fight. not very fair handcuffing a character so dramatically.
"h2h is a lot of things depending on your personal definition. 2 boxers fight h2h speed obviously plays a huge role, as does skill and power and ability to absorb punishment"
Combat speed only. That can be acceptable altho H2H its more grappling, skillfull moves, soak damage ability.
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"you'd have to limit supes to fighting like hercules can fight to get herc a chance in the fight. not very fair handcuffing a character so dramatically."
Limit nothing. Its a type of fight like any other. If supes was more skillfull in a higher order he could take it, but he isent.
Even in a slugfest i dont have him performing the majority against the likes of Hulk and Hulk isent even as versatible. Is that limiting too?
Hulk does better because the way he uses the powers at his disposal work like a charm in a slugfest.
In a H2H match, you just dont use the versability powers, otherwise it wouldnt be called hand to hand. Theres no handcuffing considering that in this kind of match they both display the same type of abilities. Combat speed, soak damage-durability, fighting skills and stamina.
Herc just gets the majority for the reason displayed. Its more his game than its Supes.
Btw Leo. Whats your opinion in the scans showed in the last post?
Last edited by olympian on Jun 1st, 2006 at 07:45 PM
The rules of the forum state that all competitors will use all their abilities and be fully bloodlusted. Flight, superspeed, heat vision, intangibility, strength and endurance on par with Im. Herc. At the very least Superman wins via bfr. At the most Im. Herc gets healthy doses of heat vision and speed blitzes until he's down for the count.
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how is making him fight without any powers not limiting him . . .? thread starter said nothing about just h2h, no powers from supes.
fact remains -- hercules cannot beat superman unless superman does not use his 'powers'. herc is more skilled, but plenty of scans have been shown depicting supes' skill in martial arts and combat in general. he did battle in asgard for what, a 1000 years?
about the scans -- not sure what there is to comment about. seemed odd that the thing took zeus out so easily but was then chased for by simple physical blows. zeus was jobbing, or one scene or the other was pis-ish. least, given that limited glimpse, that how it came across to me.
I just browsed through Thing #7. Herc. didn't impress me much Thing actually slapped him around a bit before the fight was stopped. I still don't see him beating Superman even h2h.
I just have a vision of Hulk slapping Immortal Herc. around in Hulk #316 that I cannot shake.
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i think h2h is the only way herc has a chance to win. his durability is still ridiculous. offhand snoop, dd aside, and magic-fist cm, who has actually PUNCHED out superman?
i agree that even h2h supes takes the majority, though herc could take maybe . . . 3, imo.
Actually, Superman was faking that KO. He admitted it in a later issue when he was pretending to be Captain Marvel.
The claw was cool though.
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Yeah, I actually have that comic book. Superman stated that he and Bruce jumped Cap Marvel and Hawkman when their guards were down, but he didn't technically state that the shot from the Claw of Horus didn't knock him out.
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"how is making him fight without any powers not limiting him . . .? thread starter said nothing about just h2h, no powers from supes."
The whole debate went further than the thread starter.
And its not limiting because both in this case would have the same abilities.
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"fact remains -- hercules cannot beat superman unless superman does not use his 'powers'. herc is more skilled, but plenty of scans have been shown depicting supes' skill in martial arts and combat in general. he did battle in asgard for what, a 1000 years?"
Unless he -only- uses is regular powerset. In that case like any other top tier in comics he can take a few. Something like 3. Thats the way they are all written.
And i also said to Snoops. Him not getting near Herc and taking everything Herc trows, its a clean sweap, sure. But you will likely never see Superman or other flying brick fight that way exclusively.
And yeah he spent 1000 years. And what great skill did he showed in those battles did we saw.
Note that i mention skill moves. Not just punching.
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"about the scans -- not sure what there is to comment about. seemed odd that the thing took zeus out so easily but was then chased for by simple physical blows. zeus was jobbing, or one scene or the other was pis-ish. least, given that limited glimpse, that how it came across to "
Nah. Zeus is weaker in the whole series. Hes still skyfather but on a lower level. Myaboshi appearantly killed some of the old Japaneze phanteon Gods to take the lead. As thing goes Myaboshi has the power to take a low skyfather (even if this was a deception attack, he did took Zeus easily).
Zeus at full power would probably had the edge.
Herc and Ares together hurted him and it was explained why. They wer already aware of the kind of magic Myaboshi possesed and knew what they wer facing. They wer also more skilled. Even so, Herc was somewhat hurt after that fight due to the magical touch of Myaboshis limbs.
The point of the story is this new japaneze God having a power that these other phanteons never faced. You know Achilles who was never hurt physically? Myaboshi easily turn up half of his face.
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"I just have a vision of Hulk slapping Immortal Herc. around in Hulk #316 that I cannot shake."
I hear ya. I keep having visons of Herc punching that Hulk around and thinking what a good match it was while he had that slap. The fear still shocks me.
Luckly that frightening story had a happy ending. Even Hulk liked it since he was taking a nap.
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"i agree that even h2h supes takes the majority, though herc could take maybe . . . 3, imo."
What higher showings of pure skill the man has? He gets trounced by WW while Herc on his universe is the one who looks better when using skill against his fellow top tiers. Some, skilled like Thor.
Thor. The guy who powerless stalemated Captain America. Is Supes more skilled than these two?
Naw. And never will be.
And out of curiosity. How many have k.o Herc at his best with force alone?
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"Yeah, I actually have that comic book. Superman stated that he and Bruce jumped Cap Marvel and Hawkman when their guards were down, but he didn't technically state that the shot from the Claw of Horus didn't knock him out"
And thats what happened.
Unless you want to say Batman was also faking when he took the bolt...
Last edited by olympian on Jun 2nd, 2006 at 01:12 PM
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if the discussion went on to be strictly h2h, that's cool. been done a hundred times, but . . .
even still, supes durability feats far outweigh herc's. with equal strength, durability would likely be the biggest difference. herc is more skilled, but he (like supes) rarely demonstrates it. there are a couple examples, but most of the time all he does is run in and punch. same as supes or hulk. and like herc supes HAS shown martial skill. scans in respect thread or i'm sure avalon or maybe snoop could say where.
you have a fair point about herc not being ko'd. still, it would take less given his durability to ko him than it would to ko supes.
that ares series sounds cool. i may have to check it out.
"even still, supes durability feats far outweigh herc's. with equal strength, durability would likely be the biggest difference. herc is more skilled, but he (like supes) rarely demonstrates it. there are a couple examples, but most of the time all he does is run in and punch. same as supes or hulk. and like herc supes HAS shown martial skill. scans in respect thread or i'm sure avalon or maybe snoop could say where."
I think its a way of averaging things out. Superman is way over WW in sheer durability but when in combat with her, that gap isent all that appearant. Same with Hulk when he goes against Thor. Thor got bruised in that long fight without the hammer at the end, but also gave Hulk a broken nose. And we all know that out of the battle examples, Hulk is the more durable of the two.
Like many others, Superman durability becomes apperant not in battles but when hes facing energy types, explosions, black holes and the like. In sheer damage soak ability i dont see him that much ahead.
Just look at Thor that even less durable stands against Celestials and the type simply because he takes the damage and refuses to go down.
Going further with an example, Thor was weakened by the HV without going down, and Supes was also weakened by Thors attacks without immediatly going down. But Thor was punched to a ko by Superman and right after Superman was punked to a ko by one assault.
On the skill debate. Its true that Superman has shown skills. The guy is good. He has training. But not on the level of a WW or Herc.
I also can be honest. I tough in the beginning that Herc at Marvel usually didnt showed any kind of skill. But the more i read about the guy since his apperance in the 60s, the more i actually realized that since then he has shown skill. From the first battle with Thor when they grapple and use the enviorment as weapons, to the battles with Hulk and the like to when he was mortal and until currently. He doesnt use them in -every single- appearance but its not even questionable that among top tiers hes one of the figthers to use it more. The guy has done disco trows to get Thor dizzy, to full nelsons, to german suplexs, judo throws, to fastball specials with Namor and Ares, to acrobat moves and grapple combos.
The guy is just more high profile. Like WW. And i dont see anyone questioning WWs place as more skilled in comparation with Superman. Even if he has showed some moves when training with her.
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"that ares series sounds cool. i may have to check it out."
One more issue to go. I higly recommend it. It has a epic type of feel. Kind of a mix between the Illiad with the God Of War game
Last edited by olympian on Jun 2nd, 2006 at 05:03 PM
Olympian's got to be one of the weirdos i used to beat up at skool, anyway, superman kicks this guys ass eventually due to a similar affiliation with a so called 'cough' 'cough' hulk!
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h2h herc wins as he is stronger than merged hulk an merged hulk gave superman a great challenge olympian no matter how u put it as ive said before no ones winnin against supes in this forum as there are many good ole boys who love him(no pun intended)
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Jun 1st, 2006 07:03 PM
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thread starter said nothing about just h2h, no powers from supes.
