This is quite similar to the Batman with Super Soldier Serum vs. Captain America thread. I believe I mentioned in THAT thread that I would give an equal split 5/10 to each combatant, and I see a similar outcome here.
Though, I would give Batman a slight majority against Shiva, considering that he has a winning record against her...
Batman won ONCE against Lady Shiva when she was mindcontrolled by Gorilla Grodd.
And it was written by Jeph Loeb which automatically throws out its validity.
Bats couldn't even keep up with Shiva and Dragon when they were fighting...
I don't get the logic of a woman who has trained since birth to do nothing but fight in every language known to man and kill is somehow inferior in skill to man who briefly trained in WWII than got thawed out in 20th century to fight with the Avengers. Where did he find the time to master every form of combat like Shiva did?Oh, right. He didn't.
Shiva is like Batgirl. She can also read opponents like her AND she was a bulletimer before she even gets the SS.
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Last edited by Draco69 on Aug 21st, 2006 at 04:20 PM
Batman was getting his ass kicked until Jason Todd interfered threw a tear bomb at her and suckerpunched her from behind allowing Bats to throw a Bat-Bola at her and tie her up....
For one, the triple-S basically enhances a person's strength speed and stamina to peak human levels. In essence, if you are a 90 pound weakling and you take the triple-S you get turned into the apex of human physical conditioning.
Take Steve Rogers for example - went for the Super Soldier program, took the triple-S, and became Captain America.
Is he stronger than the best a human can be?
No! He is the best that a human can be, not stronger!
Does it make him faster than a human can be?
No! He is at the epitome of human speed!
Whcih is why I am always amused by the Batman vs Captain America threads.
Why?
Well, because Batman and Cap. A are basically at the same level of human capability.
There are only TWO differences between the two:
i) Captain America became peak human through imbuement of the triple-S, while Batman became peak human the old-fashioned way.
ii) The second major difference between them is that Batman, although peak and obviously having perfect human stamina, doesn't have the same super-efficient anti-lactic acid metabolism mechanism. He isn't able to simply negate the build-up of fatigue chemicals within his body, and thus he can get tired. Captain America on the other hand is perfectly able to get rid of lactic acid from his body cells, and thus he suffers no fatigue.
This by the way is the only 'super' power that Captain America has due to the triple-S formula, in that he simply doesn't get tired. Batman on the other hand does tire, and as we saw in KnightFall it can be used as a weapon against him (although it should be noted that it took days of 24 hour activity with no sleep before Batman was sufficiently tired for Bane to take him out and break his back. Thus Bruce's fatigue coping ability is definitely a wonder, but he is not able to dissipate fatigue poisons like Steve is able to).
Apart from the above two differences the two characters are perfectly analogous when it comes to everything (including throwing ability by the way, since many people like to say how Captain America can 'throw his shield.' Go to the Batman respect thread and see some of the ridiculous stunts Batman pulls with his batarangs, including several which are quite ludicrous - even for comics. Thus even if throwing ability they are matched).
By the way ......when it comes to Black Panther, now that is a 'super' human. The Wakandan heart herb did not make him into a 'perfect' human but into an enhanced one (everything, from his sensory perceptions to his strength and speed were enhanced to something beyond human).
But I digress .......
What's the purpose of this post?
Simply put the following:
a) Captain America's 'experience' with triple-S is absolutely useless here. Why? Because he is facing Lady Shiva, someone who is also basically at 'peak human' (although Marvels and Dc's 'peak human' levels are simply silly - no REAL 'peak human' could do 90% of the things those characters do, but I digress). Lady Shiva is basically at the peak of human capability, thus Cap's experience with the triple-S is a moot point. (Now, had you said fighting experience that would be another discussion, with points for both characters, but on terms of Captain America having 'far more experience with the SS serum' that is a 100% moot point).
b) Lady Shiva having the triple-S formula will only help her in one thing ......super-stamina. That's it. Her speed is already at the max of what a human can be (maybe more, but more on that later), her strength as well, her reflexes, her perceptions etc etc etc. The only thing the triple-S would do is give her the same metabolism that Captain A has, meaning that she would never get tired. APart from that Shiva (and Batman, and Black Panther, and Shang Chi, and other similar characters) wouldn't notice anything extra from the triple-S formula. As a matter of fact Black Panther might even become worse if he took it (although I put T'Challa here because at times he is described as nearly peak human, other times as peak human, and other times as enhanced human. Take your pick).
c) Lady Shiva's abilities are (to be honest) more than peak human. If you look at Batgirl for example, who is basically equal to Shiva (one may win one day, the other will win the next), Cassie is said to be around 4.2 times as fast and 2.6 times as strong as a human. And the feats she has pulled have been basically meta-human. Now, is Shiva meta? Well, she is supposed to be 'peak,' but most members of the Bat family are SIMPLY PUT meta! From Batman to Batgirl to even related characters like Shiva and Richard Dragon. The whole 'peak human' thing is a farce, particularly if one looks at feats.
A peak human doesn't sense the movement of a sniper's bullets by the 'cushion of air pressure due to the bullet's displacement in the atmosphere.'
As for Captain America, many of his actions are also meta. Simply put. For instance when he was trading blows with Spiderman (who has the relative strength, speed, and agility of a spider - an actual SUPER being-; PLUS Peter has a spider-sense that allows him to dodge lasers and bullets - yet he couldn't dodge Steve's PUNCHES) and actually winning.
Now, Captain America's major ally in such matchups is his jobber aura (since in a non-PIS environment Spiderman should put Steve in a plywood box with one punch, and not even know how it happened). Yet Captain America was tagging Spiderman as if Parker was a snotty nosed third-grader!
Anyways, all I have to say is that the triple-S formula is basically a non-factor here. It would only be a factor if Shiva didn't have it, and the fight was supposed to last for several days non-stop (during which Steve's metabolism/anti-fatigue advantage would make him win against Shiva and similar characters).
However here both have the serum, and the fight is not a protracted engangement but much shorter.
Thus who wins?
Could go either way.
Cap has profound combat experience and he is the peak of human perfection. He can always be counted to outperform. Captain America has been shown taking on characters who should be able to pound him into either pulp (eg Spiderman) or dust (eg Thor - yep, that son of Odin, in what was probably one of the highest pieces of PIS/CIS since Batman punched Darkseid and got away with it, since Wolverine lasted more than one panel against the Hulk, or since Doom ....well...., since Doom did virtually ANYTHING). Captain America is one character who has hardly been defeated - actually the only real victory I can think of against Captain America is when Tchalla's father T'Chakka (the Black Panther before the current Black Panther) defeated Captain America in combat and hauled his unconscious @$$ home! That is the only TRUE defeat I can think of. There are others, for sure, but most of them are either debatable (eg the Batman vs Cap fight, where you see one clearly knocking the other out, and then on the subsequent panel you see the person who knocked the other out is not the one who is unconscious) or it was against an opponent who was clearly superior. But in most cases you will see Steve beating his opponent, and whenever it seems impossible he just switches on his Jobber Aura and it does the work for him.
Shiva on the other hand also has prodigious combat experience, is a prodigy of the unarmed arts, and basically built her reputation as a killer of killers and until the entry of Cassandra was the best of the best in DC (ignore Karate Kid and his space-ship breaking super-karate for a moment, and also ignore characters like WonderWoman and her Amazonian fighting abilities as well as Superman and his Kryptonian 'martial art' - yep, Clark is supposedly so good at the martial arts that he can even go into the spiritual realm through concentration. That ability must be some vestige of his pre-crisis days, although every now and then, once in a blue-moon, you see post-crisis Superman going 'gung-fu' on us. LOL. ). Anyways, Shiva is arguably number one in DC (sharing the spot with Cassie, and to a considerably lesser extent with people like Richard Dragon Connor Hawke, and Constantine Drakon, and to an even lesser extent with people like Batman - although every now and then you'll see a shuffle, but generally the tops are Shiva and Cassie).
Winner: I'd say a draw. A perfect 5/10.
Because it only takes one small error from either one of them to lead to an INSTANT knockout (if Captain America wins) or SUDDEN death (if Shiva wins and drives her fingers right through Steve's skull ala the leopard blow).
This is a draw.
And since both have the triple-S then this fight could even go on for days.
A good analogy is if I asked you the following question: [u]Which main battle tank would win in a one-on-one battle? A single American M1A2 Abrams MBT handled by a competent crew of Americans VERSUS a single British Challenger-2 MBT handled by a competent crew of Britons?
The answer is it could be either! Both tanks are the best in the world (the best is either the Abrams, the Challenger, the Leopard 2, or the Merkava 4 - they are all basically near perfect). And since one crew is American and the other British then you can be sure that both crews are also pretty much perfect AND equal.
Thus who wins?
Could be either! It all depends on extraneous factors now.
Same thing here - Cap could win, Shiva could win.
And with both having triple-S then it is even more equal than can be imagined.
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Last edited by spetznaz on Aug 21st, 2006 at 05:20 PM
Gender: Male Location: Training for the Fanboy Olympics
i agree with that except Shiva would win. cus the fact that she's done things fighting wise he could only hope to do. she'd have his physical perfection and Cassie's move precog thing. He'd never touch her. but she's faster than Cap even without the SSS. with it she'd be able to tag him a whole lot more than she would be hit. in the end even though he'd hold on for a while she'd beat him from all the hits she was landing whilst he was landing few if any at all.
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