So what? As far as I know Dooku and Mace didn't get stronger nor weaker during the Clone Wars.
Okay then, zam, why did Dooku run if he wasn't losing or going to lose? Name one other reason. Yoda didn't get close to touching Dooku in AOTC, either, and Dooku fled. Kenobi and Zule Xiss never got close to Asajj in The Defense of Kamino and she fled. Maul never got close to Qui-Gon when they fought on Tatioone yet Qui-Gon fled.
Yeah, and AOTC Anakin seemed to hold his ground for the first 30 seconds of the duel with Dooku, didn't he? But later he lost. And Dooku held his ground with Yoda, didn't he? But he still fled because he could tell that he was going to lose.
Anakin and Kenobi were busy dealing with Asajj. True the other Jedi would soon have came, but not that soon, if the battle was that close to being over, why would Dooku have wanted to fight any Jedi and not have just fled right away? That doesn't make sense.
OMG, Dooku has lightning, so does Quinlan Vos, he must be able to pwn all now, right? And Mace is far more advanced than Kenobi is with the Force...
well other than what Kane said, it was not worth the effort, there is no question those 2 are very close, and Dooku would have to use all of his powers to beat him but considering the situation w/ Anakin and kenobi coming it was not the place for a fight, im not acting like the fight would be easy, but he could take him out.
is he? far more?
to claim him force choking Kenobi in ROTS, while he slams Anakin into wall with a kick is nothing is crazy, you can not downplay that, Mace could not have done that.
Unfortunately, the situation is this: Count Dooku had no compunctions about squaring off against Yoda [whom everyone knows to be more powerful than Mace] on two occasions, and he fled when he knew he wasn't going to win. The situation is similar here: Dooku expressed the intent to handle the Jedi himself not too long before Mace arrived. And yet after a brief duel, he orders the Magnaguards to interfere to admittedly facilitate his escape.
Like it or not, Mace defeated Palpatine, because Mace has two unique weapons that neither Palpatine - and therein, Dooku - has no defense against: Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad is innately effective against Sith and dark siders, turning the strength of the dark side into a "weapon of the light", and Shatterpoint allows Mace to detect weaknesses in anything that has them.
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: The epitome of my evolution.
Account Restricted
No.. he kicks Anakin, and THEN levitates and tosses him. And Mace used the force to both levitate an entire ROCK SLIDE in the air while holding back Magma, AND saving a group of kids in a tractor from falling off a cliff, if I remeber right.
It wasn't worth the effort to kill Mace when he could have? Right, and why would it not be worth the effort? Kenobi and Anakin were not coming, they were busy fighting Asajj and trying to get her to turn back to the lightside. And I sure would like to see proof why Dooku could take Mace out. The Dooku supporters have yet to post any of that stuff, y'know.
Yup. Otherwise Dooku would have just owned Mace with the Force in Obsession as he did with Kenobi in ROTS.
Maybe he could have, Anakin wasn't fighting his best for fear of hurting Kenobi and Dooku got a lucky hit in on him. I see no reason why Mace couldn't have gotten the same lucky hit in on him.
Could it be because Dooku knew there was a chance Mace could beat him, therefore didnt want to risk it. I dont think anyone is arguing against the fact that there was every chance Mace could have beaten Dooku, or vice versa (due to their extremely close power levels). But the key word is chance. Chance does not equate to 'Dooku flees therefore he was definatly going to lose'. That sort of thinking is foolish at best. The way I see it, Dooku didnt want to stick around and risk his own life when he realised how powerful Mace was. Not because he was going to lose, but because he knew how much he had to lose.
__________________
Last edited by Rampant ox on May 14th, 2007 at 06:59 AM
He didn't want to risk it? After being so enthused about getting to kill Jedi, he flees just because there's a chance that he might lose? No, there's a chance that he'd lose, however small, in any battle, if he was so scared of a chance then why would he, enthusiastically, want to fight Jedi in the first place?
What did he have to lose? No more to lose than Mace did, and Mace didn't run. If Dooku had felt like he wasn't going to win, he could have even called the Magnadroids in to fight Mace and then attacked Mace with the Force while the Magnaguards distracted him, but nope, he aparently didn't even think he was capable of doing that. Even though, supposedly, he is ahead of Mace with the Force.
I never said he could kill Mace did I? And I didn't remotedly say it would be an easy win; your simply throwing my valid point into the Mace vs. Dooku argument, which I said I was not part of.
The Obsession source you used simply is not precise enough to be used in Mace or Dooku's favour.
He was so 'enthused' about fighting Mace himself because he is arrogant. You know that as well as I do. However, after engaging the Jedi Master he realised that victory would be more difficult than previously thought and decided to flee. After all sith are cowards, and Dooku (more so than most) values his own life above all else.
Mace didnt run because by killing Dooku the CIS would face a huge setback. Mace knew how important Dooku was in the CIS hierachy, therefore by killing him it would be a huge plus in the Republic war effort. What would Dooku gain by killing Mace? The pleasure of knowing he killed one of the greatest Masters of all time? Thats a far more personal reason than Mace's, and Dooku is smart enough to know not to risk himself for that.
I just dont see how Dooku fleeing automatically equates to Dooku losing. I mean, we dont know what was going through their heads at the time, so alot of this is all speculation.
And taking out one of the generals of the republic (MR. JACKSON) would also be a major setback for the republic, remember that each jedi was assigned clone bodyguards, all of those bodyguards must have been killed before Mace was and Mace had a pretty darn big squad, plus of course there is the satisfaction
__________________ Hey papi, Hey ese, Hey whiteboy,
Tell me what you need!
What's good? Talk to me. Work with me, man!
I got everything!
No Clones, just Mace, who leapt over to Dooku as he prepared to depart. Two Magnaguards stood near by but did not participate in the fight until Dooku forced Mace over the egde of the cliffs with them.
Dooku was certainly in no time for a drawn out duel with Mace, irrelevant of who the victor would have been, so much so that he allowed Ventress to be left behind and sacrificed. Only Grievous was taken under the pretence that he cost too much to lose. It simply isn't a useful source.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
I was just wondering if someone could debate without bias...either for or against?
Dooku beat Mace before, however Mace had created Vaapad since then and we all know that helps against the darksiders. Now, does that guarantee victory? Absolutely not. His shatterpoint ability (which is completely independent from Vaapad) would be more of a tactical advantage. In that time span, Dooku's own power had increased considerably, what with more experience as a Jedi and then his Sith training and experience.
Dooku is hailed as one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists, and despite what DS19 thinks, his mastering of his form to the highest degree, set him leagues above most saber duelists, possibly to include Mace. If you read up on character's in almost every bio they're one of the best at something, or extremely gifted with this, that or the other, so comparing skill is hard to do on that front.
Vaapad is a strong form, but its not said to be as powerful as Djem So, and we cant say Mace is stronger or as strong as Anakin, so we also cant say that Dooku will automatically be at a technical disadvantage.
Now don't get it twisted, I like Mace alot more than Dooku; in fact, I hate Dooku. But here I think Dooku can pull out a win, but in no way will it be an easy victory.
, the vaapad is not going to put him over somebody like Dooku especially since,Dooku uses the best form for dueling, form II, it would be close, but Dooku overall is better.
Last edited by kiddo44 on May 14th, 2007 at 09:13 PM
I think that Mace dipped his toes in the darkside (ie. force crush) after the first battle of the clone wars, therefore with that and a lack of experience with fighting with the sith, he would be overwhelmed by Dooku.
__________________ Hey papi, Hey ese, Hey whiteboy,
Tell me what you need!
What's good? Talk to me. Work with me, man!
I got everything!
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
A few things: Dooku was not a big part of the CIS at that point. Well, obviously he was, but, he was saying all throughout their brief exchange how he didn't matter.
I believe Vaapad has been stated to be more "open and kinetic than Form V."
Mace can draw off of whatever power Dooku uses, and use it as his own, along with his own powers (Including Shatterpoint), while using a form that has the power to take on Makashi head on. I believe Mace would win in a saber battle, and even an all out battle, even as of AOTC.
And Mace is far more advanced than Kenobi is with the Force...
May 13th, 2007 11:48 PM
, the vaapad is not going to put him over somebody like Dooku especially since,Dooku uses the best form for dueling, form II, it would be close, but Dooku overall is better.
