Gender: Male Location: Stuck In the future where Akus evil
IMO it is entirely contradicting. Without spoiling anything the 8 year skip was a very dumb idea and not even needed. They wanted him out of practice and could have achieved that without making him stop. Bruce doesn't even seem to want to represent what he did in TDK and he had to re-realize it.
And I also heard (not sure if this is true or not) that TDKR focuses on the fact that Batman isn't just a man but a symbol that anyone can be. Basically anyone can be Batman. If that's true, then that contradicts Begins and Dark Knight SO much that it's ridiculous. And I heard the ending is really bad (don't spoil it for me though).
Won't see it till next week but I don't have high expectations. Though I heard Catwoman is the best part and just like the comics.
No. The fact that he quits being Batman despite TDK being all about him having to come to the realization that Batman is who he has to be forever and there's no escape from it. And TDKR focuses on him realizing this again despite him already realizing this by the end of TDK. It contradicts his whole character arc in TDK and makes TDK not even needed.
Yeah, not sure the implication that Batman needs to stay around come from. Yes, Bruce needs Batman but that's why he is such a wreck during the opening of the film as he has no purpose. However, TDK makes it pretty clear by the end that Gotham no longer needs him around.
"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now."
Gender: Male Location: Stuck In the future where Akus evil
Gordons son: "why are they chasing him?"
Gordon: "because he can take it"
Gordons son: "but he hasn't done anything wrong"
Gordon: "because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now."
They needed Harvey because if he was figured out the criminals would all be put back on the streets not because all of the streets are clean. As I recall the streets were only to be clean for 18 months....he quit for 8 years. In the 8 years at some point they passed the dent bill but they made perfect notice they still had crime just not a lot. Batman knew in TDK he needed to be batman I don't see why he wouldn't have continued it. I feel like a much better take would have been batman fighting regular criminals so he was rusty/out of real practice. It also would have made his medical issues more conceivable if he hadn't just been setting around not doing anything for 8 whole years. He was literately locked out from the world.....
It's all kind of small beans I guess but I do get what spidermanrocks is saying and it seems to me batman had to over come the events of the joker without quitting....realizing he couldn't stop being batman. People may say he quit because the police where after him but that would indicate that he in fact could not take being chased by them.
I think this might be my favorite of the trilogy, but I have to watch it again. Most likely it's on par and definitely better than Begins. Solid movie.
I'm still not sure where the point that Bruce realizes Gotham continues to need Batman comes from. I mean I get the exact opposite feeling from the ending of the film. Besides Gordan's speech saying Gotham no longer needs him (something Bruce also claimed earlier) but the fact that the people of this city are good. Plus it helps that the vast majority of organized crime was stamped out during the moive.
Yeah. Because foreshadowing that Gotham will continue to be under the constant threat of higher classes of criminals like the Joker (aka other supervillains from his rogues gallery) and then establishing that Batman is there to fight the battles against that higher class of criminals no one else - not even Harvey - could handle TOTALLY makes it pretty clear that Gotham doesn't need him anymore.
The people of Gotham might THINK Batman is just an unneeded murderer but the exact opposite is true. Joker stated that the mob wanted everything to go back to how it was back when they ruled Gotham (before Batman showed up) but there was no going back. "You've changed things. Forever." He knew Gotham would never go back to being ruled by mob bosses and would slowly turn into a city full of a higher class of criminals like him - the "freaks". TDK clearly foreshadowed the demise of the mob and the rise of costumed criminals like Joker due to Batman's presence - an idea taken straight from Long Halloween. That's exactly why Gotham still needed Batman. More and more "freaks" like the Joker would have threatened the city that even people like Harvey couldn't face because they're just men while Batman is "more than just a man; can make the decisions no one else can make" (quotes from BB/TDK). Remember how he thought Harvey was the one to replace him? After the Joker corrupted him but failed to corrupt Batman, Bats realized there can be no replacement. Only he is the one able to stop that higher class of criminals without falling into the darkness. Though Harvey was the best at fighting Gotham's villains, he was no match for the "supervillains". And with the movie foreshadowing there would be more "freaks" to come, Batman had to stay and fight the battle no man can fight. I know it may sound like I'm just repeating myself in a loop but you get the idea.
IMO it worked and worked very well! His character arc to me is not changed. At the end of TDK he becomes the hero Gotham needs by taking the fall for killing Harvey and the others. So 8 years later it's still peace time and batman is not needed but he is still wanted for the murders. but once bane comes into the picture he is needed again!
Bruce stated that before realizing Gotham will always need him (which was right at the end) and right before Alfred gave him the speech to how Batman can make the decisions no one else can make. It was only after Harvey's demise that he realized he's needed to fight against the higher class of criminals (aka supervillains) no man, including Harvey, was able to beat because they're all just men while Batman is more than just a man (going back to Begins). Thus it is irrelevant whether or not the people of Gotham are good because the best Harvey could do to inspire them is show them how to fight against organized crime and the mob - they are not able to keep Gotham safe from "freaks" like Joker, Riddler, Black Mask, Mad Hatter, etc. and that's why Batman is needed (despite them not knowing it).
Organized crime being stamped out is irrelevant to the necessity of Batman. Going back to my previous post, TDK foreshadowed organized crime was going to fall anyways because of the rise of the "freaks" and Batman exists to keep Gotham safe from that class of criminals. As organized crime slowly falls, the numbers of people like the Joker should have increased. Though it looks like Nolan dropped this idea completely making that two important plot elements dropped. Going by the stuff foreshadowed in BB and TDK, most of Batman's rogues gallery should have attacked Gotham during the 8 year gap.
Yes, but those criminals aren't around between TDK and TDKR. Batman is waiting until a character of this type shows up before emerging.
Eh, no. I got the exact opposite idea from his speech. The Joker is talking about how Batman has "shown Gotham your (the mob's) true colors". Yes, he does try to make "a better class of criminal" but he fails in this. His entire boat scheme collapses do to the goodness of the citizens, and his "ace in the hole" fails as well as Batman takes the fall instead.
The Joker's goal was to corrupt the soul of Gotham to bring forth new criminals (freaks) like him. But he fails. Truthfully, there is no notion in the film that other supervillians will begin to congregate toward Gotham.
That's the point. That's one of the problems with TDKR IMO. TDK seemed to be foreshadowing that more of these "freaks" would continue to show up and quickly. "They want everything to go back to the way it was. But I know the truth. There's no going back. You've changed things. Forever." Apparently, there IS going back since nothing happens for 8 years.
I personally always saw the first two movies as foreshadowing the idea that more people like the Joker will show up. Mostly due to the ending of Begins (Gordon to Batman: "Now that you've shown up, people like you are starting to show up too") and several lines of dialogue throughout TDK (such as "The mob wants to get rid of you so that everything can go back to how it was before when they ruled Gotham. But I know the truth. You've changed things. Forever. There's no going back." - I see that as foreshadowing). The Joker failing is irrelevant to that as "[Batman's presence] changed things. Forever."
If you think about it, this foreshadow isn't exactly that unused or unheard of. They did say Long Halloween was one of the inspirations for The Dark Knight and Long Halloween constantly does this to a far greater extent. So it kinda makes sense it's there in the first two movies since it's in the book.
I'm still unsure how you all believe that. Gordan at the end of the TDK states that Gotham doesn't need Batman right but he will be waiting to emerge when he is needed again. And that's exactly what is going on at the beginning of TDKR.
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Jul 21st, 2012 08:54 PM
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