jinzin: You would show me ambiguous scans of Wolverine dodging bullets and lasers and argue that the only key was FTB or FTL speed. So far, you haven't proven the reasonable possibility that Wolverine didn't have a split-second's or second's differential with which to get out of the way of the aim or that Wolverine was already out of their aim, i.e. two steps ahead.
Essentially, you're offering a scan that unambiguously shows a conclusion, Wolverine not being hit by bullets/lasers. You present them and argue to the exclusion of all other reasonable possibilities, that Wolverine necessarily must have used FTB/FTL speed. You've not presented any clear reason why those reasonable possibilities are precluded by the circumstances of those scenes.
Time to switch gears. And we'll start that, by qualifying the evidentiary strength of scans. Answer this question: Which scan between these two, is stronger proof of the proposition that Captain America has FTB speed and why is it stronger:
Isn't the basis for both of these arguments grounded in consistency between depictions of characters? Consistency that doesn't exist?
How is Jinzin supposed to prove absolutely something that is entirely dependent on artistic interpretation?
Doesn't a showing only prove that a particular artist thought something was cool?
I mean I think I'm sort of leaning towards one dumbgo in terms of a FTB reflexes not being able to be proved, in the empirical sense because of the ranges in Logan's showings.
Though I still agree with Jinzin that Logan could have FTB reflex.
I don't see the conflict in these opinions because there doesn't seem to be any consistency between depictions by different artists.
So I guess then I would vote Jinzin. Telegraphing is not the most reasonable excuse for Logan's showings. It is a very good one. It is as reasonable as any other, but not more reasonable than FTB reflexes.
^ The argument isn't about whether Wolverine "could" have FTB reflexes. It's about whether he can legitimately hold out certain scans as absolute proof of FTB/FTL speed. Also, good job waiting for the debate to actually finish.
There is no need to wait out the entire argument becasue
1) I see no end in sight.
2) I disagree with a part (therefore the whole) of your initial argument. which was ...
and
It isn't unreasonable.
You have attempted to add your own context which you cannot prove empirically.
His argument is...
and
I agree that 'aim dodging' is not the only explanation. And I add that it is not even the 'best' explanation. It is no more reasonable than his.
He says that these feats are not empirical evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes.
I agree with that as well, considering the ranges of reflexes the character has shown.
I also add that the differences are attributable to artistic license.
We all agree that these scans don't provide proof empirical of FTB reflexes. What we don't agree on is why. Which is what you are arguing now.
I agree with only part of your argument.
I agree with all of Jinzins.
Therefore I cast my vote for Jinzin.
I hope I'm not interrupting any ongoing discussion here.
The way I see it, making a claim of specific existence requires specific proof to validate said claim. If a claim is made for the ability of man to outrun a greyhound, specific empirical proof is required. The scientific community will accept nothing less, and the same applies to the argument here when juxtaposed. Basically, if Jinzin is to use certain scans to prove that a character has FtB reflexes, the scans MUST prove exactly that without wiggle-room for non-exceptional argumentation. This of course means I agree that OneDumbG0's position is logically sound.
As far as:
is concerned, I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. Simply put, if you agree with ODG's basic argumentative position, you intrinsically accept that it is then Jinzin's prerogative to prove that his scans specifically prove FtB/FtL reflexes for Wolverine. ODG does not have to be exhaustive with regards to his reasons as to why Wolverine may have been able to dodge the bullets/lasers, because anything that cannot be specifically interpreted as conclusively FtB/FtL works towards building ODG's case. Not allowing for the existence of non-discussed reasons that aren't logically unreasonable is a fallacy of the single cause.
Here, you have your first summary of Jinzin's premise (not attributing it to him as he may have a different interpretation of his argument's pillars);
While that is fine on its own, it does not prove the existence of Wolverine's FtB/FtL reflexes, which basically voids the argument.
This is more interesting, but is ultimately fruitless, except for the fact that there is an implicit assumption that the posted feats "should" lead to FtB/FtL reflexes, which is congruent enough with ODG's own premise, and which places the burden of proof onto Jinzin's lap. The scans either prove the presence or lack of FtB/FtL reflexes with respect to the evidence provided. The entire pre-qualifier on comics not reflecting real life is basically preaching to the choir, is not necessary, and does not change the motion one bit. Why exactly did you bring this up? Not least when you can be quoted as saying that you do not agree that the scans provided prove that Wolverine has FtB/FtL reflexes. It seems to me like you expect ODG to be exhaustive with respect to his reasons as to what could possibly have happened rather than placing the burden of proof on the party making the proposition. If so, that seems like a Loki's wager of sorts.
I think that Jinzin's position was doomed (or at least made extremely difficult) from the start (not due to any lack of debating skill), but simply because the motion makes it nigh impossible for scans to conclusively, or to say with any degree of certainty, that Wolverine has FtB/FtL reflexes.
Last edited by Ouallada on Jun 1st, 2009 at 11:55 PM
So far this is what what I see
Odg wants to argue against only jinzin
He does not want any other person to comment on this thread other than odg I'd jinzin until such time as he odg has determined that the debate is over
Odg set the conditions if this "match" and it can never end until odg says so because he didn't even set a time constraint...
He therefore stacks the odds unreasonably into his favor such that... To me at least he is either baiting or trolling jinzin...
Considering those conditions this is not so much a match as something for comic book forum questions
Or private messages
Or your own msn and then copy and paste your arguments layer for everyone. Although I believe odg is "winning" the conditions of his fight. It's almost like he told someone to tell you the exact sequence if all numbers in pi. Or e. I don't know for sure the answer buy I'm pretty sure youre damned because the answer is probably near impossible to find.
I therefore find the conditions unfair
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
Ah. But my point was that ODG never stipulated a time until a mod stepped in. He was, in my eyes for two pages, baiting Jinzin and trying to set a match that was akin to, Prove God does not exist.
Also, May 24, was when the mod stepped in and ODG stipulated that he agrees to only a 1 week match. So therefore any further comments by Jinzin or ODG are moot, as they should have ended on Sunday May 31, and today is already Monday June 1.
And in my eyes... the term FTB or FTL is not quite accurate anyways. It isn't... are my reflexes FTB or FTL, but.. .given a certain distance... can I move the required distance to dodge a bullet or Lazer instantaneously fired at me. The problem I have with everyones arguments right now is that one person says well even if the bullet is fired... all whats his name did was nudge his shoulder out of the way of the bullet... Which to me shows FTB ability. For FTB you don't have to be able to move as fast as a bullet, but merely fast enough in any direction that takes you out of harms way of the bullet or lazer.
Now part of the argument is that some people telegraph. Well duh. If they didn't you wouldn't know which way to dodge to best make sure you didn't get hit. So the argument to me that telegraphing is not part of the FTB/FTL skill is ludacris. Part of FTB is speed, and part reading people. To take away the ability to judge where the bullet is going and move out of the way removes that skill. IE. If i didn't know you were gonna shoot me at any point ever, why would I ever dodge. And then, once knowing you were firing, your motions would identify where the projectile would be coming from, and hence you could move out of the way....
Unless of course you are in the uzi situation where bullets spray everywhere.... and even in those situations cap or wolverine is ducking low or side to side.. to avoid getting hit... in most instances wolverine gets hit.. but plows on... cap may take a few in teh arm or leg.. or get grazed.. .but he'll keep on going as best he can...
single shot FTB ability is the ability to jerk a short distance and know where the shot is coming from..
multishot ftb... well damn you're quicksilver flash or superman.
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
The whole reason why you brought up aim dodging in the first place was because you assessed that telegraphing shots is what helps heroes avoid gunfire without actually being faster than a bullet, which is a fine interpretation to have. However, that argument necessitates that one has to adjust to the aim before the trigger is pulled.
The problem is that in the Wolverine scan (barring your added context of course) is that Wolverine would have to adjust to said aim AS the trigger was pulled. He's not reading body language to negotiate the shots based on telegraphing and therefore he's not aim dodging he's instead using sheer speed to negotiate the bullets, his speed is what's accredited in this instance, and not reading a telegraph which was the whole principle behind aim dodging.
You've stated before that the order to fire was the telegraphing this instance, but once more both parties are subjected to processing the order and acting upon it as soon as it was given. Wolverine wasn't aim dodging, no matter how you may want to adapt your semantics or add your own context, he was simply hauling ass.
I'm not sure you were following along. What I proposed was that if Wolverine wasn't moving faster than the bullets coming out of the guns, then he necessarily had to move faster than the order to fire had even been processed in the Yakuza's minds... which if was the case, would make it a feat equivalent to impulses relating signals in a human brain... Which is true. There's really no way around that fact... unless of course you add in filler to the feat which doesn't exist.
Well since you weren't arguing for .3 seconds until the hypothetical you made in your last post which you then tried to argue against, I'll just ignore this little display of haphazard conclusion jumping on your part.
I can't prove a negative... No one can and you know that.
What we do see is that the panel taking place immediately after the order to fire, is firing which would lead one to conclude that it was an immediate reaction.. You argue otherwise but offer nothing more than your own rationalities.
That they were given the order to do so.
You're missing the point. Runners on a track are set to perform an action and wait inactive for the order to be given to perform that action. Waiting on the precipice of an order, they react as soon as the gun is fired. The shooters too were waiting and already poised to perform an action and once again, Yakuza are not some punk kids taken off the street. They are highly trained, skilled, and disciplined in all aspects martial. There's no reason to assume they took their time to fire and it certainly isn't indicated by the panels. You think otherwise, then provide evidence.
You didn't argue they took him lightly? And yet that's what your argument dictates when you've convinced yourself that they were so assured having Logan dead to rights.... and yes, it was the case, though it's nice to see how you projecct your own "I would have" on other comic characters again.
Absolutely. BUT, he would STILL need to process the order as it was given and move from a position of rest to up and over the bar before bullets went flying into the air to dictate that it wasn't a bullet time feat... But once again, if that was the case, it's more likely more impressive than a bullet time feat.
Likewise, your argument hinges on filler between panels which was never suggested. Wolverine even able to operate multitudes faster than his assailants would still need to take time to process the order and come up with a reaction to it, it wasn't instantaneous was it? And, frankly once more he had to travel from a position of rest up and over a counter before the trigger ever got pulled. You seem to think such a display would be no indicator of bullet time reflexes and I disagree.
Isn't what's displayed on panel. What we see is Wolverine attacking them and them using the guns as clubs after that. I'll try and post pics later.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
You only think we're at an impasse because you decided that the guns don't line up on Wolverine when they do. There's nothing ambiguous about the artwork and what the artwork is attempting to convey isn't up to mass differences of interpretation, it's pretty clear. Now, you set up a standard here and the only difference worth mentioning between this feat and the Cap feat you presented yourself is Wolverine in motion. You wish to ignore this proof? Your perogative.
No he DID NOT get hit by THEM... he got hit with ONE... which was a GRAZE WHILE AVOIDING THE MANY, and when he was hit he states it is because he can't avoid all of them at once, not because he wasn't fast enough.. Being too slow to evade something and too compromised for space to evade something are completely different things so stop equating one to the other. Wolverine did what you think he can't regardless of your rationalities that come thereafter.
You are.
Again, you're assuming what he reffered to was what you've rationalized.. At no point does Wolverine relate anything to anticipation or planning, he relates it to speed and strength... At no point does Wolverine state anything about being two steps ahead of where the blasts are aimed, instead he refers to the blasts themselves... You're not reading Wolverine's own thoughts, you're reading into them.
No... You're the one adding the the narrative statement by suggesting that the statement didn't mean what it said. The statement is simple, blunt and to the point... There's nothing that needs adding. It flat out said he dodges rays...
But that's not what it says so I need not be concerned about your rationalities, especially when you're addressing Wolverine's feats as hyporbole about a subject we've both deemed absurd...
I've already made my attempt at justifying my position so I'll appreciate that you do not assume it for me. No indication that a second was taken and Wolverine moving in the scope and range he did within even a split-second is on par with bullet time.
The only possibilities that lend themselves to this conclusion are both unreasonable and unlikely.
you mean like responding to the order to fire by hauling ass? Yeah thought as much....
hypocrite.
What does this have to do with anything. I've already told you that what I feel about the feet makes no difference as to it's having taken place...
As I said, Wolverine has dodged these things where a split second differential is completely irrelivent.
And yet even in these feats you simply play devil's advocate no matter how reasonable or unreasonable.. as I've said, your perogative.
Yeah I showed you one feat that has virtually no difference to the Cap feat you presented as a standard other than Wolverine in motion which I've already proposed is of little relivence.
I showed you another feat of Wolverine DODGING multiple lasers and being GRAZED by one among the many due to space, not speed.
I gave you a narrative statement that flat out says Wolverine dodges ray blasts...
So far all you've offered is non existent context, your own rationalities about what's reasonable, and nitpicking on what you think supports your argument rather than consideration about what doesn't...
Attack my logic? That's all this is about and all it's been about.. And, while you sit and puff your chest with so much false bravado, pretending like your argument is "more reasonable" than my own you do nothing but show that you're still the same Onedumbgo as always; using the same double standards and storytelling devices that you always have.
I'll happily await when you begin to show me how Thor's reaction times are beyond an instantaneous result as we all know he's reacts behind the linear timestream.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Jun 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 PM
I'm not trying to get into a long winded discussion with you but I feel this is an important point to address.
I do think the proof provided in several instances validates the claim. I however, feel your defection to the scientific community to be flawed as we know that proof around a claim which supports it can also justify the claim's validity as accepted by the scientific community as well. For instance the Big Bang Theory.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Jun 2nd, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Which is why it is called the Big Bang Theory, or why we have the theory of evolution. A theory is at heart simply an observation of a certain phenomena while certain underlying assertions as to causation are made, with these causations meeting certain rigidity tests. In other words, those schools of thought are likely, but not conclusive. Your case, forgive the seemingly negative approach, is far less concrete than the theory of evolution, for instance, and certainly does not prove the claims made. For instance, saying that water boils at approximately 100 degrees C is an empirically proven concept. Saying that absolute zero occurs at -273.15 C is not. I hope you can see why the burden of proof rests on you, and why the claim has not been substantiated from my point of view.
I was of course referring to what's generaly accepted by the scientific community I understand full well it's a theory, that wasn't the point.
I understand what proof I'm burdoned with here, I don't see how it's not been proven.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
KMC Community Forums
May 31st, 2009 11:41 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
hey man what's up?
