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How much Batprep is too much?
Started by: JakeTheBank

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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

I'll make posts in whatever forum I feel like, thanks.


You will post in the "Versus" forum and like it, Jake! mad


quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Batman in general when he's paired up against Superman often has the benefit of one sided prep, weakness exploitation of some type, while Superman himself is nerfed.


PLEASE be more specific.

In almost none of the stories that I've read did Superman have any REASON to prepare for Batman, only the opposite.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

When Batman uses his Kryptonite, Superman winds up being sent for a loop...yet in Superman's own issues, the guy can endure and tank a ridiculous amount of Kryptonite before falling.
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.



Have you considered that it's precisely BECAUSE Superman knows Batman that he gives little thought to Bruce as adversary?

Superman, arguably more than any hero this side of Spider-Man, knows responsibility comes with power -- and the potential to abuse it.

Superman's nightmare is himself out of control, shattering the lives of those he cares about. Not only has he several times TOLD Bruce that he's counting on him to prevent that, he's equipped his friend for the task. Remember that, in most mainstream tellings, Batman's kryptonite ring was actually SUPERMAN's kryptonite ring GIVEN to Batman.

Superman has purposeful DISincentive to arm himself against Batman. He WANTS his friend to be able to stop him should the need arise.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 07:42 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.


thumb up


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 09:29 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
thumb up




I have a feeling actually examining this point would lead you guys to a different conclusion
or reveal that special circumstances were in place to override the fact that they know each other.


Perhaps I can illustrate.

Here are the most famous instances Superman versus Batman encounters that I personally know of.

I understand that your list may vary, anyone who wishes is not only welcome but ENCOURAGED to present examples of what THEY mean.


(alphabetical order)


1. Brave and the Bold (Cartoon TV Show)

-- Superman knows Batman but is under the influence of Red Kryptonite




2. Dark Knight Returns

-- Superman has never fought Bruce before.

-- Has no idea Bruce found a way to synthesize kryptonite.

-- To my knowledge, never found any human opponent able to defeat him until the bomb was released;
has no reason to think the aging 50 year plus Bruce Wayne will be the first.




3. Dark Knight Strikes Again

-- Could have no clue Bruce would have essentially tripled his stock of kryptonite since their last meeting.

-- Has most of the fight knocked out of him by Bruce's remnant "Justice League" before he faces Bruce himself.




4. Hush

-- Under the influence of Poison Ivy's pheremones and synthetic kryptonite.




5. New Frontier (comics)

-- First time encounter




6. Red Son

-- First time encounter.

-- Has NO idea the special redlight floodlamps will take away his powers.




7. Sacrifice

-- Nearly completely under the influence of Max Lord.

-- Thinks he is fighting another opponent entirely.




8. Teen Titans (Issue #50, Volume 3)

-- Ambushed. Has no idea Batman is waiting to take him down.

-- Has no idea Batman in this case is Tim Drake, either.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 10:46 PM
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Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably."

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 11:53 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.



Well, again, this is what I was responding to:


quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.




And I don't think most of the "Batman takes on/down Superman" stories I've seen give much justification for saying this.

For most of them are either 1st time encounters or stories where one or the other hero is mentally compromised.


Here, let me search for what's in easy reach and illustrate.

#8 on my list. Batman takes down Superman in Teen Titans #50.
"Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman"? Doesn't work here. Doesn't work at all. In fact, Superman scarcely realizes he's in a fight with Batman, which is over by the time he does.

Attachment: kent captured. titans.jpg
This has been downloaded 36 time(s).

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:39 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have a feeling actually examining this point would lead you guys to a different conclusion
or reveal that special circumstances were in place to override the fact that they know each other.



7. Sacrifice

-- Nearly completely under the influence of Max Lord ...

Attachment: jla playback. batman superman sacrifice fight.jpg
This has been downloaded 33 time(s).

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:47 AM
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bluewaterrider
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Say, P.R., long as I got you here, let's see what your response to the following is.

For Darkseid, despite his evil, has a history of being a foe with honor as great as that of Dr. Doom, and, unless you want to say he's given to violent and rash outbursts, which to some extent I agree with, I don't, overall, understand why you think Darkseid would be trying to kill Batman in that "Return of Kara Zor-el" saga.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider


Contrary to popular belief, Darkseid IS capable of, and actually in the HABIT of, holding back his full, true, anihilating power in many confrontations.









Understand that I am referring only to post-Crisis history now.
I don't know how Darkseid ranked against anyone before then.

Post-1985, however, even the first encounter between these 2 illustrated that Superman is only
a match for the Master of Apokolips because Darkseid allows that to be the case:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://oi56.tinypic.com/13z8ykl.jpg
http://oi55.tinypic.com/jq43t4.jpg

http://oi52.tinypic.com/242ad8n.jpg
http://oi53.tinypic.com/20jpmvp.jpg

http://oi56.tinypic.com/1fdc0k.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/34ovdw2.jpg

Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586





At this point, you will balk, and understandably so.


Darkseid himself says he is beaten,
that Superman had thus won a safe trip home.



How, then, can anyone say otherwise?






Here's the problem:

Darkseid CHOSE to send Superman safely home.



He could have sent him anywhere.




What if, instead of adhering to a code of honor, he had decided on a place that was NOT safe to beam Superman?





If you have a hard time imagining that scenario, let the JLA help you envision one of the options Darkseid actually had at his disposal:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi56.tinypic.com/53webo.jpg
http://oi53.tinypic.com/6zq5aw.jpg


http://oi56.tinypic.com/2z68383.jpg


Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: October 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_Le...merica_Vol_2_24

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 01:38 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have a feeling actually examining this point would lead you guys to a different conclusion
or reveal that special circumstances were in place to override the fact that they know each other.


Perhaps I can illustrate.




4. Hush

-- Under the influence of Poison Ivy's pheremones and synthetic kryptonite.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi54.tinypic.com/29azm7t.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/2q39ljt.jpg
http://oi52.tinypic.com/9lim2b.jpg


Source: "Hush" Trade
Batman #612, Volume 1

Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Jim Lee
Date: April 2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_Vol_1_612



quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider


6. Red Son

-- First time encounter.

-- Has NO idea the special redlight floodlamps will take away his powers ...


Attachment: red son. lamps might give me heat rash.jpg
This has been downloaded 33 time(s).

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 02:00 AM
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-Pr-
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If it were up to me, pretty much every issue of McDuffie's JLA would be stricken from the record when it comes to Superman.


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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 04:57 AM
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Esau Cairn
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.


It really breaks down to one-sided argument & that is specifically WHO the writer is writing for.
Is he writing for a Batman story or a Superman one?

It's also slightly ridiculous to compare a serious story line (like Miller's DKR) to a children's cartoon series like Brave/Bold to prove a point.

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 09:06 AM
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It doesn't help that Miller hates Superman either.


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably."

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 09:07 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

Miller hates Superman ...





confused

"Hates"?

You think something OTHER than love prompted him to pen scenes like the following?

Attachment: the dark knight strikes again 1 pg75.jpg
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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 09:47 AM
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-Pr-
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Location: Ireland.

Not sure what you mean, unless that's dynamite sarcasm.


__________________

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably."

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 09:49 AM
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bluewaterrider
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laughing out loud

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 09:50 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Esau Cairn

It's ... slightly ridiculous to compare a serious story line (like Miller's DKR) to a children's cartoon series like Brave/Bold to prove a point.





Indeed, Esau Cairn, indeed ...



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Esau Cairn

Well ... straight up, my opinion's gonna be biased.


I was in my mid-twenties when the graphic novel was released & at the time it was considered & labelled as, "The very first comic, written for adults."
Frank Miller's rendition of The Batman was praised as "The Bible for the Batman Universe." Countless writers afterwards respected the notion that this would be how Batman's future would become & wrote their stories to hint both at his retirement & senility. Even Miller's "abstract" art was viewed as both a pleasant change & a challenge to the clean cut, conventional/cliched illustrations of other heroes at the time.

So to finally see an animated version that follows the storyline BUT tones down Batman's senility & suicidal monologue... is in my opinion
a bit of a disappointment but at the same time enjoyable & tame enough that I can watch it with my 7 yr old son & not deal with issues of "Why does Batman have a death-wish?"
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...64#post14212262

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 11:12 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.


I've gone through everything except Dark Knight Returns, New Frontier, which, unfortunately, I no longer have, and the Brave and the Bold showing. I'll post a few of the first and the clip of the last if my Internet holds out ...

Attachment: more wind. the dark knight returns. showdown. superman versus batman.jpg
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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 11:54 AM
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bluewaterrider
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... and this other image from Dark Knight Strikes Again, too, for I've seldom seen a more over-the-top beating than the one Miller has Batman administer here ...

Attachment: dark knight strikes again. merciless heavy hand treatment.jpg
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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:01 PM
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bluewaterrider
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To reiterate the point, though, nearly every encounter here has something that either disproves friendly familiarity with Batman's modus operandi, or some circumstance that overrides it.

Here, again, in Dark Knight Returns, Superman does not know that Bruce has now a weapon that can seriously hurt him. He never gave Bruce a kryptonite ring in this reality, and apparently the stuff is very hard to find. More than this, Bruce is a shell of his former self, physically, on the run from the law, and, save for the gang members that help him through Gotham's blackout, is not known to have any allies save the girl Robin.

Exactly how could he be expected to prepare for the following, then?

Attachment: money shot. green arrow in dkr. dark knight returns showdown. superman versus batman.jpg
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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:10 PM
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bluewaterrider
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4 more submissions.
Then, barring one final ordered run-down, I'll be satisfied that you've gotten the clarification you asked for.


Only debating the order here, and perhaps whether to be courteous to one other respondent right now ...

---------------------------------

Alright, let's have this one, seemingly unrelated to anything as a pseudo-interlude:



Like Hulks and papier mache ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:30 PM
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Now submission 2, which is incredibly iconic in some circles ...


(Did Frank Miller have a famous forgetful president in mind when he drew this? Can't help shake that idea ...)

Attachment: batman versus reaganman. reagan downpunch. frank miller dark knight returns.jpg
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Old Post Apr 18th, 2013 12:33 PM
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