Her spell affected all realities. It doesn't matter if it started within 616, it had enough energy to affect all Omniverse. You say ''She only did 616 and then her spell woven or only sperad thrugh all realities''. Her spell, her power in spell, there was enough energy to go or spread through all Omniverse. That was her energy, her power.
Does it even matter? Directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter. It was her spell, power that did it. Her spell had enough power behind it to spread across all Omniverse. Her power was Omniversal.
And about Phoenix Force; I mean sum of all life, ultimate mutation, literally 6 heroes defeated the full power of the Phoenix Force and was also blown by Shiar ship, Galactus having power to erase it etc.... Of course there are also high feats (not in league of Wanda though).
You use WPOTC holding an orphan universe (or even if it was 616 universe) in the palm of her hands (and even she saying it wasn't easy) as a big feat. Wanda directly affecting 616 with mere words ''No more mutants'' still tops WPOTC feat holding 616 universe in her hands. And Wanda did with 616 far more than just ''No more mutants'', although even that feat tops WPOTC.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Sep 27th, 2010 at 05:32 AM
Once again, this is where youre going wrong XP. The concepts me and ExodusCloak were talking about you dont seem to understand. If it didnt matter whether it was indirect or direct, then why do you think he tried to argue against me so persistently?
Because it makes ALL the difference
Im going to use this example and i want you to read it and ponder on it before replying.
If Galactus consumed Earth in an issue of Fantastic Four, then all divergent future timelines would not have Earth in them.
Does that mean Galactus' act was multiversal because no Earths exist in future divergent timelines after that? Because timelines diverge all the time from 616 and what makes them divergent timelines is the fact that they ARE 616 up until the point in time that they split off from the main reality. So if Galactus blew up Earth, then of course there would be no Earth in future realities.
So if Wanda cast a spell and made everything in 616 different shades of red and pink to match her outfits, then all future divergent timelines would be red and pink because they are based off of the core template.
So whether its directly or indirectly makes a big difference. If it was directly then she did a very powerful thing.
However if she just cast her spell in 616, then went about her daily routine and the spell made it into other realities NOT because Wanda pushed the spell into them but just because the spell was present at the time that these timelines diverged then the feat is demoted significantly.
All those incidents you've mentioned are untruths and you have learnt this over the years and even argued against others saying them. You know better Xp.
The full Phoenix in appearance or power has never been shown on panel. As the Big Bang of reality if it gathered its entirety in one place then there would be a void because the Big Bang is all.
The full Phoenix never got defeated by six heroes, the Jean Grey persona defeated herself, cut back her powers via psychic circuit breakers and that coupled with holding down her dark side she committed suicide.
Or if youre referring to the firebird in the Ultraforce crossover, the firebird as stated on panel, many, many times is an avatar of the Phoenix Force. It is not the Phoenix Force in its totality, but instead a representation.
When you see the firebird, you know that in most cases thats the sentience of the Force itself in operation as opposed to just a host using its power. However the firebird is just a mere manifestation of the Force. Far from all of it.
The Shiar ship blew up an already shattered(by Xorn) avatar of the Force, it reconstituted the cosmic avatar within reality and as stated shattered that which was already in bits.
However the Force as stated is mutable, indestructible cosmic life force. You cant destroy the Force it is by canon completely indestructible.
Its firebird avatars are mutable cosmic energy and can divide into multiples:
Raw energy cant be destroyed, it just goes from state to state.
You are wrong about the full Force being involved and your point about its avatar being blown up is irrelevant. It just reforms with no trouble.
Your argument is weak
Theres a massive difference between Jean telekinetically amputating an entire timeline and manipulating the atoms of 616 in the palm of her hand and Wanda simply turning off the mutant gene on Earth. Are you having a laugh? Think about the ridiculous difference in matter involved. I could understand you trying to make a case for Wanda warping 616 reality when she caused the HOM reality but the No More Mutants spell? Get serious Xp, turning off the mutant gene on Earth and doing a botch job(because 198 were left unaffected) does not compare to the manipulation of all matter in 616.
Yes Wandas spell affected other realities, but not because she cast it over the entire multiverse, but instead because she cast it on planet Earth and all alternate realities that diverged from 616 would obviously have the spell in it because they are based on 616. Nothing to do with Wanda. Indirect
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Sep 27th, 2010 at 07:47 PM
I do understand.
Of course, all you said is logical and true.
But her spell actually spread through other realites, other universes. As it seems, it affected all. If it spread from 616 to other universes, it had power behind to spread (it has to have enough power behind it). If I destroy Earth now, of course Earth won't exists in the future divergent timeline.
Now, I little forgot how it works in MU; does all other realities spread from 616? But even if they do, if I destroy 616 Earth now, why should Earth cease to exits in Ultimate universe, which is actually other universe with other beings in similar roles. It's actually other reality, other universe in MU. It does diverege form 616, true, but if I kill Wolverine in 616 in the present time (he won't live in future), but he won't cease to exists in all other realities in Omniverse (or I just really forgot how it works in Marvel).
When Wanda said the spell in 616, it spread through other realities and affected them and they weren't affected automatically, because she did it in 616.
This might be true of course. But even if it is, on panel it was shown that full Phoenix Force was cast away by six heroes. I don't know how can they write somethign like, since if we use brain, PF, full power or not, could destroy them with the blink of an eye (I think it was Utraforce crossover). I admitt I even don't use that low showings seriously. I don't even use Shiar ship blowing PF into billion pieces seriously.
That is the point. I know it wasn't the totality, part of the full PF, but still, those heroes shouldn't have anything on it.
No. I was always far more impressed with only saying mere words and it happens then going into WHR, holding an universe and amputating it atom by atom and saying it wasn't easy, not even for WPOTC, then just saying words or think about it and it happens (like with Wanda or even MJJ).
It had everything to do with Wanda, because it was still her spell. And they can't just have spell automatically, because it's actually an other universe. It had to spread. Why would they automatically have the spell, even if it from 616? So if I do something in 616, kill someone in 616, they autmaticaly die in other universes that diverged from 616? If that how it works in Marvel, that is just stupid. Beast in other universe is completely different being than Beast in 616, it's a different person. Only similar role.
And Dr. Strange acutally said her spell woven through all there is. It seems, her spell acutally literally spread through all there is (through other mulitverses in Omniverse and that means it had to have enough energy behind it) and thus affecting all other realites and not because she cast her spell and other realities woud obviously have the spell (it could work that way if Marvel works in that way, but I don't think so. Like I said, if kill someone in 616, he/she would obviously have the same result automatically in othere universes in Omniverse?).
If she did directly, it's even greater (which probably isn't the case, since what Dr. Strange said).
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Last edited by Xplosive on Sep 28th, 2010 at 05:45 AM
XP you dont understand otherwise you would not have said this. Divergent timelines are all based on 616. They ARE 616 up until the point that they diverge. So whatever is in 616 at the point of divergence, whatever state 616 was in, would be carried across in these divergent timelines.
Like i said if Galactus blew up Earth, any timelines that diverged from 616 after Galactus did this would not have Earth in them. Of course realities that diverged BEFORE Galactus did this would not be affected.
Wanda never cast her spell in the past, otherwise according to the nature of reality stated by Marvel she would have changed history and just created an alternate timeline like she did with House of M. Therefore that means Wanda cast it on the present of 616 which is why future timelines have no mutants in them:
By casting her spell on the universe, at this point in time with her spell still in place in the present, future timelines would automatically be affected as would all timelines that diverge from 616 after she cast her spell. Just like they would all be affected if Galactus blew up Earth, there would be no Earth in realities that diverged from 616 after the act and any future timelines would automatically be affected. That wouldn't make Galactus's feat multiversal.
Further proof that Wanda didnt directly cast her spell over the entire multiverse can be found in the Exiles series.
The House of M crossover within the title lasts between issues 69 and 71, after which point House of M is over and the Exiles move on to different realities. The many realities they move on to in their various adventures are unaffected by Wandas spell:
Here you can see the Exiles returning fallen comrades home. These fallen heroes were featured in the title long before House of M meaning their realities diverged from 616 BEFORE House of M. As you can see this wide variety of realities were unaffected by the No More Mutants spell. This proves that Wanda only directy affected the 616 present and in turn realities that diverged from 616 after the spell and future timelines. Wanda conclusively did not affect the entire multiverse directly as shown by the Exiles adventures after their Hose of M crossover. Instead Wanda cast her spell on 616 and as timelines diverged from 616(something that has nothing to do with Wanda) the spell as it was present at the time of the diversion made it into these alternate worlds and dimensions.
I will say this once again just so that you understand. If Galactus blew up Earth in 616, all realities that diverged from 616 after that point would have no Earth, all future timelines of 616 would be affected. That does not mean Galactus directly blew up all Earths in the multiverse, but of course the affects of his actions would indirectly have an affect on future timelines that derive from 616.
It wasnt the full Phoenix Force, it was a shard of the Phoenix Force, just like the ones we saw in Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Warsong that possessed Emma Frost and the Cuckoos. You were mistaken to believe that the appearance of the Firebird equates to the full force as i explained to you in my previous post.
So not only was it a little portion of the Force, but it was also a portion that de-powered by being in another multiverse:
The Phoenix manifestation was a shard away from the main body of the Force that lies in the Marvel multiverse, therefore it was comapatively weak. That was the plot point that enabled the writers to feature the Phoenix in a believable story. Otherwise the avatar wouldve just blown them away. If you had read the story you would know that. Stop forming your viewpoints based JUST on peoples scans and arguments and take the time out to read the issues themselves.
Wanda never did it with just words. Her words just marked out to the heroes what she was going to do.
Furthermore the No More mutants spell as ive shown you wasnt her most powerful feat, it involved merely turning off the mutant gene on planet Earth and this of course affected indirectly the future and any timelines that diverged after Wandas actions.
As ive shown you past timelines that diverged before werent affected and neither was the past of 616 itself because that wouldve resulted in an alternate reality leaving 616 unaffected. Which it didnt.
So what that means is that Wanda ONLY made a chemical alteration in the bodies of mutants on planet Earth. That was what she did directly. The future being affected or timelines that later diverged being affected doesnt make it a multiversal feat. Wanda never pushed her spell into those over realities. As they diverged, the spell was in 616 so the spell was in them. Just like if Galactus had eaten earth and then a timeline later diverged there would be no Earth in it.
So compare making a chemical alteration in a few thousand mutant bodies on the planet, compared to Jean not just destroying a universe, which is a reality in one specific point in time, but instead a whole timeline.
She then went on to manipulate the atoms of 616 in her palm telekinetically, so with her thoughts. A lot greater than spoken words and compare the matter of an entire universe to the chemicals of a few thousand mutants on planet Earth
Wandas biggest feat is warping 616 into the House of M and even then that doesnt compare to Jean. Warping 616 is just like giving it a new coat of paint. She changed a few events on Earth making Magneto and her family rulers on Earth and that was that.
How does that compare to controlling the matter and energy of the entire universe down to the atomic level and having it in the palm of your hand like its nothing?
The warping of reality was done with the aid of Pietro for emotional support and Professor Xaviers psi powers to co-ordinate her own. Wanda could barely control it, it was an intense effort.
Phoenix casually destroyed a timeline, not a universe a timeline then manipulated 616 at an atomic level therefore having complete control of its matter all in the palm of her hand. Despite the Consciousness warning her that its no easy thing, she did it without any visible discomfort.
Wanda and all her efforts, the abstracts and their cosmic wars are nothing but ants in the little universe Jean Grey has total telekinetic control over in her palm.
Ive already handled this already. Wanda conclusively as ive shown never directly cast the spell across the multiverse, she cast it on 616. Futures which stem off 616 and divergent timelines which spring off 616 would obviously contain the spell in it because they are derived from 616 where the spell was cast. Therfore in that way the spell has woven itself through the multiverse, not through any direct action or multiversal effort from Wanda, therefore the feat in itself is not top tier. The spell itself was merely turning off the x-gene in a few thousand mutant bodies on earth. Thats a simple chemical alteration. So whilst the impact of the spell went far beyond the original action, Wandas actual feat the casting of the spell on to 616 was not that great.
Her biggest feat is causing House of M and as ive shown it taxed her abilities to their fullest and she couldnt maintain control of it, even with the aid of Prof X and Pietro.
That scan of Mr Masters and Jaspers you have misinterpreted. Why have you misinterpreted? Because you just swallowed what Mr Master wrote alongside his carefully selected scans and never read the issues yourself.
If you read that paragraph carefully it says a wave of unimaginable power tore through reality and tore it to pieces. That was the Chaos Wave, youre right. However whilst the Chaos Wave may very well have been triggered by Wanda, as stated on panel very clearly was not a direct manifestation of Wandas power:
As stated on panel, the Chaos Wave was the leaking of warped 616 reality through a breach in the dimensional wall that Wandas alteration unwittingly caused. The Wave is clearly and explicitly stated to have been triggered by Wandas House of M. Just like if a lightning bolt hit a tree splitting it, the heat from the lightning bolt caused a fire which eventually spread to other trees and the whole forest burnt down before it was eventually stopped. Thats effectively what happened. Wandas direct action, the creation of House of M, triggered the Chaos Wave. That lightning bolt of its own power couldnt have destroyed that whole forest. However it triggered the fire which spread and consumed the forest. All the Chaos Wave did cannot be attributed to Wanda, she never directly created it, she never directed it or maintained it whilst it existed. Wandas only big feats that can be directly attributed to her are House of M and the No More Mutants spell.
For arguments sake, even if we were to attribute the Chaos Wave to Wanda, it still wasnt that impressive.
It was a trans temporal tsunami which leaked into Otherworld which as the "primary intersection" or reality, the place where according to this story arc, all realities are connected to, it collapsed the structure:
The Chaos Wave didnt expand across the entire multverse and collapse it. As clearly marked out in the issue, Otherworld is the primary intersection of realities. All or most realities are connected to it. Think of it as a keystone of reality. The Chaos Wave collided with the keystone, the weakpoint of reality and it caused a number to collapse on themselves. It didnt caused all of them to collapse or 616 wouldve been done for. It clearly wasnt. The idea that it reached out across all existence and simultaneously collapsed all realities is also conclusively incorrect. It leaked into Otherworld hitting the weak point.
Think of Otherworld as a column supporting a bridge, The column was shaken, compromising the structure of the bridge and causing some of it to collapse.
If you read it carefully, it says the omniverse was torn apart by the Chaos Wave, however when it says that it reversed itself and put it all back together again, its not talking about the Wave, its referring to reality correcting itself.
The wave never reversed, it was stopped by Meggan a sub herald level character
READ the issues you see scans from. Take the time to think about ambiguous statements. If a statement can POSSIBLY be interpreted in a different way, then dont just argue that your way is the truth because you prefer that idea. Look at other factors involved, like is there precedence for this feat, what do the handbooks say when they refer to the incident.
Jean Grey is the most powerful mutant in Marvel and her feats of power are greater than any mutant we've seen and greater than any universal level characters or artifacts.
Look. If Galactus destroys Earth, Earth won't exists in future timelines from the point he destroyed it. Of course. Does that also mean, Earth won't exist in Ultimate universe? If I kill Wolverine, will Wolverine automatically cease to exist also in Ultimate universe? No, he won't. Wolverine in Ultimate universe is completely different being and not his personal expansion (even if it is an alternate reality diverged from 616). Wolverine in Ultimate universe doesn't depend on Wolverine in 616 universe (and LT acutally could change 616U with UU). If something happens to Wolverine in 616, that doesn't mean at all it happens to him in UU. The same goes for the spell. If Wanda affected mutants in 616, that doesn't mean at all it automatically affected mutants in UU, but it needed to spread or directly. And as I know, UU was also affected by Wanda spell. Actually, Dr. Strange said all realites. And when she said ''No more mutants'' she simply meant it, no more mutants and since mutants are everywhere, also in other universes, thus result was affecting them all.
But if you say is true, then all other universes in Omniverse depends on 616 and 616 works as an absolute universe (since is not the case, because LT could change it with UU and LT is not an absolute) and beings in Ultimate universe and other universes in Omnverse should always tremble ''I hope something doesn't happen to Wolvereine... beings in 616 so that I won't automatically cease to exist'', even though beings in 616 are completelly different than others in UU (but of couse similar role, still completely different being).
Meggan with all the power she had, only gave Chaos Wave a pause, nothing more.
How could I misinterpreted MJJ scans, when it literally says that Chaos Wave literally tore the Omniverse completely and then put it back? Wanda was responsible for that and Chaos Wave. I mean it couldn't be put back on its own, some had to have control over it.
Even Wanda in alternate universe could have warped every Earth in Omniverse.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Sep 29th, 2010 at 04:38 AM
Scarlet Witch may have done something great but not everybody was affected by it
__________________ "Do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck by lightning? The same thing that happens to everything else." - Halle Berry as Storm, from the first X-Men film
The Month of May is Ororo Munroe aka Storm Month!
Not everybody was affected in any case. Only case I remember everyone being affected, was when Thanos with THOTI destroyed everyone and everything (and even then Death (although because of Thanos love towards her) was alive and Adam).
Xp youre just not getting the whole alternate universe and multiversal concept otherwise you wouldnt be debating this point with me and you wouldnt be typing what you are
What happens in the core universe, will affect future timelines that derive from the core universe(616). Anything done in the present as i stated before if Galactus blew up a planet in the present it would affect future timelines based off of 616, any timeline that diverged after Galactus had blown up the planet, would not have the planet in them.
Any timelines that diverged into their own alternate realities BEFORE Galactus blew up the planet, would NOT be affected by Galactus eating the planet because those realities were based on 616 up until a certain point BEFORE that event and diverged into their own realities. They are still connected to 616, but they diverged at an earlier point.
My argument is that Wanda did NOT directly apply her spell to the whole multiverse directly as you and exoduscloak claim, but instead she applied it to 616 and future timelines and any timelines that diverged from 616 after the No More Mutants spell obviously had it in them automatically because they diverged from 616 after the spell was cast.
I then went on to prove my point by showing you a variety of alternate realities that were visited on panel AFTER the No More mutants spell was cast and they had plenty of mutants in them, they were unaffected. These same realities were 1st shown in the Exiles comic before Wanda cast her spell which meant that they diverged from 616 at an earlier point. So as i explained just now, at the point of time they diverged, the spell hadnt been cast so the spell wasnt automatically carried across into them. But as we saw when these realities were shown later the spell still wasnt in them which proves i was right.
The spell was cast in 616 and it therefore affected "all realities" that diverged after this event which would explain Stranges and Shadow Kings comments and also account for why as shown in Exiles not literally all realities were affected.
Regardless of the word of Dr Strange or Shadow King who as far as they could see said the spell had affected all realities, they are not omniscient, just knowledgeable therefore their word does NOT equate to fact. Despite what they thought, we were SHOWN that Wandas spell actually did NOT affect all realities. There was at least a dozen realities depicted on panel that were actually visited on panel and that is greater proof than an ambigious statement like "all realities" which as i said previously could mean all realities derived from 616 after Wandas spell.
As i have shown with on panel proof far greater than Dr Stranges ambiguous statement, all realities were conclusively NOT affected.
My interpretation that Wandas spell was cast on 616 and affected all realities that diverged after her spell accounts for why in Exiles realities that diverged BEFORE Wandas spell were unaffected after House Of M. Your interpretation that she cast her spell on the entire multiverse has been shown by on panel evidence to be conclusively wrong.
This paragraph shows that you did not fully read my posts to understand the concept of a multiverse in Marvel. Read again and see why this is NOT an appropriate response to what ive said.
Any realities diverged after the event would be affected. Realities that diverged before the event would be unaffected. I hope you understand now.
Meggan is not a big cosmic power. Shes below herald level and thats how she has been shown consistently throughout her existence. She stopped the Chaos Wave and thats that.
It was only a big threat because it was unexpected and hit Otherworld. Otherworld was shaken and as Otherworld is connected to all realities a number collapsed into Otherworld. The Chaos Wave itself did NOT collapse realities directly as shown on panel. It did NOT sweep aside alternate Galactuses and abstracts as you claimed. It did nothing of the sort. You misinterpreted. Its all explained on panel if only you had just read instead of just looking at the pictures and believing what other posters told you without analysing for yourself.
The scan did NOT say that the Chaos Wave fixed reality. They say the wave shook up reality and that reality later fixed itself. The subject matter of the statement is the omniverse/continuum, it says the omniverse was shaken up by the wave, then everything was put back.
Your mistake was in interpreting that the Chaos Wave did this when the subject matter of the entire page is the omniverse and what happened to it.
You made an illogical assumption given that the wave as stated was a mindless, destructive force and thats all it ever was depicted as. Furthermore there is a precedence for reality trying to fix itself after the damage done by the Chaos Wave:
Reality corrects itself all the time. This particular scan refers to REALITY correcting itself after the damage done by the Chaos Wave so its directly related to your scan. You misinterpreted.
Based on what evidence? If that was the case then we could say the same for every alternate version of a character and we'd be able to use What Ifs in debates here Xp. You know thats not the case.
Xp, every point you've come up with ive shown to be incorrect, you have nowhere to go from here. Its quite clear im right.
Ive shown that not all realities were affected by Wandas spell.
Specifically ive shown that alternate realities that existed prior to House of M(meaning they diverged from 616 before the spell) were NOT affected which means literally all realities were NOT affected
Ive shown scans of Forge saying that future timelines were affected which makes sense given that they occur AFTER Wandas spell was cast.
My interpretation that Wandas spell was cast on 616 and wove through the multiverse because of realities that diverged after the spell was cast and future timelines automatically having the spell in it because they are based on 616 after the spell has been cast accounts for the numerous realities that were not affected. Your interpretation does NOT and theres no way of getting around that.
You misinterpreted what the Chaos Wave was and what it was directly responsible. I have shown you that it did NOT directly collapse realities and instead collided with Otherworld and as Otherworld is a keystone of reality, shaking it was like taking the wrong Jenga piece. It caused a domino effect. It didnt do the damage itself and it certainly didnt swat away Galactus and abstracts as per your misinterpretation.
Furthermore as ive shown you reality can and does heal itself in Marvel. As shown in the scan it did so after the Chaos Wave was handled by Excalibur.
Do NOT just believe what youre told by other posters, read the comics the scans come from and analyse them, dont just let others tell u whats happening in a scan. Especially when its a poster like Mr Master with an agenda.
Wanda is no Phoenix, she is a powerful character capable of warping reality in a universe. That is her biggest feat however, she struggled majorly with it and lost control despite the aid of Professor Xavier who she needed to bring House of M about.
Wanda did NOT cast the no more mutanst spell over the entire multiverse.
Wanda did not create the Chaos Wave. It was an accident that she triggered by bringing about House of M.
Her feats are conclusively below Jean Greys who amputates timelines and controls the atomic structures of universes within the palm of her hand without even breaking a sweat.
I understand it perfectly well, GS. Like I said before, if Galactus blows a planet and future timelines diverged from it, of course planet isn't there. Realities that diverged before he blowed it up (in the past), would be unaffected since they diverged in the past (past like before blowing the planet). I said it before, it's logical. But what you didn't seem to understand what I was trying to say, when you say all she cast a spell and all future timelines diverged were autaomatically affected, I was arguing that doesn't mean automatically all realties were affected, like I was giving an example of UU and Wolverine. Of course, you said, alternate realities diverged before that are uneffected, but you don't understand why I was giving a such example, because you were always sticking ''diverged future timelines ...'' , it doesn't matter, because Wanda affected ALL realities (all means ALL) as it was stated by Dr. Strange and Shadow King.
That means that Wanda applied it directly in ALL others or it actually spread to affect all others (as I was always saying) and it seems Dr. Strange said that was the case and it affected ALL realities in Omniverse.
Actually it says that Omniverse was literally tore up to bits and then rearranged it.
No, acutally you aren't and it's not to know from where to go, because you are just always repeating yourself and it's going around the circle.
I was always arguing it affected all realities, that is why I was always saying it didn't matter was it directly or it spread, since it was ALL realities in question and not only future timelines that diverged.
Except that it says Wave of unimaginable power tore it to bits and rearragned it.
If what you say is true, that all realities weren't affected, then you are simply right.
But I don't have the will to go back and search of comics and take a time and read it. You seem so sure if I read it, that I would find that you were right all the time.
You have panels saying it affected realities, then you say all alternated realities weren't affected and so on...
And honestly GS, I would like that you are right, because as you know, I always liked Phoenix.
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 4th, 2010 at 05:44 AM
Im not going to reply to you point for point because i dont need to, the evidence is quite clear.
Regardless of what Strange and Shadow King said, their word was shown to be conclusively incorrect so theres no merit in repeating the point that they said it affected all realities because it did not.
As a long time comic reader you should know that statements like all reality or all realities are ambiguous and shouldnt necessarily be taken literally. This is another case where you were wrong to take it literally because Wanda did not affect all realities as shown clearly on panel.
Wanda as far as we've seen only affected future timelines and the present as shown, which means that she never applied her power directly across the multiverse, she only applied it in 616 and when alternate realities later diverged they obviously carried the spell with them.
The Chaos Wave in that scan with MJJ was said to have torn up the omniverse, the scan doesnt go on to say the Chaos Wave fixed everything, it says reality put things back the way they were. You misinterpreted. I showed you a scan stating and showing how reality started to fix itself after the Chaos Wave struck. You were wrong on that point.
All in all, Wanda has been hyped up on these forums partly because of Mr Masters agenda and partly because posters dont bother to look into things themselves and believe whatever theyre told as long as a few pretty vaguely relevant scans are posted. Few bother to look into the evidence themselves which creates this confusion.
To summarise:
Wanda warped 616 to bring about House of M, however as she stated she couldnt control it, she needed Professor Xaviers powers to co-ordinate her reality warping. Wolverine and Layla Miller could see through the warp showing she did a rubbish job and when the heroes attacked she lost control showing it was an effort and that to maintain she needed full concentration.
Wanda only directly applied her spell to 616 Earth. However any realities that diverged from 616 also had Earths with the spell in them, but thats common sense. Nice feat, not amazing.
Wanda did not create the Chaos Wave, it was an accident that she had no direct part in, she merely triggered it. It was only a big deal when left unchecked and it did so much damage because it hit without warning, but as shown by Excalibur when confronted it didnt require a great cosmic power to be dealt with.
Still, the scan with MJJ, ''Not so long ago, the omniverse was swept to by a temporal reality wave (since Chaos Wave was in the game, we know they meant Chaos Wave) of unimaginable power... that literally tore the continuum to bits and rearranged it''.
You can say whatever you want, but it is very clear that they applied on wave tearing it (definitely did it) and putting it together. And after rearraning it, of course it was then capable of healing itself and put everything in order like it was before (look at this way; human body tore up and then rearranged and put together, only after that, body will be capable in time of healing itself to a previous condtions, like it was before), but wave tore it and rearrange it. After that, it was capable of healing itself. Only how can you defend here is that Chaos Wave maybe wasn't really Wanda power (I cannot comment here, because I won't go reading it back).
If it was (IF), Wanda wins (even if you only agree with wave tearing it).
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Last edited by Xplosive on Oct 4th, 2010 at 10:39 AM
I was never saying that the wave didnt tear up reality, i was arguing against you saying that it tore up reality and afterwards it put reality back together again. Thats what you initially said and said a few times in this thread. That is why i went on to say that you misinterpreted, the wave was only shown to be mindless and destructive and i then showed you scans saying that after the wave did its damage then reallity healed itself.
Now youre trying to make out like i had an issue with the point that the chaos wave tore up reality i never did.
What i do have an issue with and as i proved in this thread with scans is that the chaos wave never went around from reality to reality collapsing them, it also never spread and collapsed a load of realities under its own power. Instead it collided with Otherworld and that had a domino effect which caused realities to collapse.
Otherworld was made a primary intersection of reality by the Phoenix Force who connected all realities of the multiverse to it:
The lighthouse(which would later become Excaliburs headquarters) became a dimensional gateway to Otherworld and its through this weakpoint in 616's dimensional wall that Wandas out of control energies accidentally leaked through as the Chaos Wave:
See Otherworld as a multiversal support column, when the the Chaos Wave hit this column and shook it up, parts of the structure it was connected with collapsed:
Or you could see the wave as a shout in the alps, that de-stabilizes a great mound of snow and TRIGGERS an avalanche(the collapse of some realities).
The wave never collapsed realities directly of its own power, it just destabilised a keystone of reality which is Otherworld, which triggered the collapse.
The wave was later stopped by Excalibur, no great powers needed to get involved. The wave was only a threat because it struck suddenly without warning.
It could never have collapsed realities directly (going by how easily it was stopped and by the power level of those who stopped it) it instead destabilized Otherworld.
Yes you have seen heroes and what looked to be an alternate reality fall victim to the destruction, but they were taken out by the collapse of their realities, not by the wave directly. They knew nothing of the wave and as shown by Meggan if they confronted it directly could no doubt have dealt with it. Its just like if i shouted in the Alps and caused an avalanche which swept across a nearby town killing many residents, residents who no doubt together or even some individually could kick my ass, the fact that i triggered something that caused their destruction doesnt make me greater than them. Could i walk around that town shouting down buildings and shouting people to death?
The chaos wave was a powerful time/space anomaly, however it was not as all powerful or unstoppable as it has been hyped up to be by posters who dont bother to really think about what they read and are instead just satisfied with pretty pictures
Wanda never had anything directly to do with it, it was an accident she knew nothing about, something her direct creation(House of M) triggered. Even if she had directly created it, it still wasnt as big a deal as you think and ive shown that. It didnt do a lot of damage on its own directly, it messed up Otherworlds building and tore up the place a bit but thats that. This collision then went on to spiral into something bigger than what the Chaos Wave ever could do directly and thats simply because of Otherworlds connection to all realities as established by the Phoenix Force
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Oct 4th, 2010 at 05:48 PM
KMC Community Forums
Sep 27th, 2010 05:04 AM
Because timelines diverge all the time from 616 and what makes them divergent timelines is the fact that they ARE 616 up until the point in time that they split off from the main reality. So if Galactus blew up Earth, then of course there would be no Earth in future realities.
Think about the ridiculous difference in matter involved. I could understand you trying to make a case for Wanda warping 616 reality when she caused the HOM reality but the No More Mutants spell? Get serious Xp, turning off the mutant gene on Earth and doing a botch job(because 198 were left unaffected) does not compare to the manipulation of all matter in 616. 
Thanks alot mate 
