Itachi would win. I've already explained why. In the following posts. Link 1,link 2.
In the first battle against the six paths he'd have an extremely easy time since they're visually connected. So unlike Shima's and Fukasaku's toad confrontation chant--which relied on hearing, which wasn't shared by all the bodies--it will affect all the bodies at the same time effectively killing them.
Itachi will also win the second battle because his abilities doesn't require hand-seals. So he'd be able to strike first and either Tsukuyomi or Susanoo's sword of Totsuka will be enough.
I've never seen Itachi actually kill anything with Tsukuyomi. Or at least, I don't recall him ever using it to do so. Also, the Paths can be shut down whenever Nagato wants. So if Itachi appears to be using genjutsu, turn them off.
Or do what I suggest and use a summon(the Bird works best) let it observe the battle and let the Pains fight eyes closed.
The influence of illusionary techniques don't wear off just because you break eye-contact.
Nagato surely didn't fought Itahci with his eyes closed as an impure resurrection. Besides, the six paths of pain's fighting style rely on their share vision.
She then went on explaining why that was the case and my panel captures are--like always--linked to the online manga for context so you can read it through yourself.
Finally Kakashi corrected her by explaining that Tsukuyomi is different.
The last one is Chiyo directly telling them to avoid the Sharingan Eyes but getting behind the Sharingan user to get into the Sharingan's blind spot.
The idea of avoiding eye contact still holds true against his Tsukuyomi. It's just that once hit, the idea of getting behind the Sharingan user and hitting them does not good to save both players: the one hit with the tsukuyomi will still be greatly debilitated.
However, it was certainly a nice try on your part, Astner, at doing what I will now deem as directly lying.
You avoided key pages before an after the scans you posted up that proved me right. You went out of your way to lie. You should be reported for that. (but I won't do it)
You're moving the goalpost? Your argument was that if you closed your eyes the illusion would be dispelled! Remember?
"It simply does not work if you don't have eye contact." - dadudemon
What Chiyo actually explained was that they couldn't be caught in Itachi's illusions if they didn't look into his eyes. There's nothing about the illusion being dispelled if you break eye-contact.
You can interpret it any way you want, I think the pieces of evidence I provided are more than satisfactory to prove my case and I expect people to be smart enough to make their own judgements.
First off I didn't avoid anything as I've already proven. Secondly, even if I were to lie there is no rule against lying.
Consider that Gai actually employed that method against Kakashi and even got a strike against Kisame should more than settle the entire discussion. There's no need for Chiyo to back me up by saying a second person can get out of sight of the eyes to avoid the genjutsu.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Oct 17th, 2011 at 09:50 PM
I didn't read any of your post because everything you have to say other than, "I was lying simply to be right and I selected certain panels to try and make myself right...for that, I apologize" is a waste of space and time.
Yes I did. If I'm following correctly you're saying that all Nagato has to do is get the Pain bodies to break eye contact if Itachi hits one of them with a Tsukiyomi. Thats what Astners arguing against at any rate. However, as Kakashi says the effects of Tsukiyomi are instantaneous and can't be cancelled. And we know that if a Genjutsu hits one of the Pain bodies all of them are affected.
Now if all you're saying is that to counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi all they have to do is avoid eye contact in the first place you're right, but I mean, jesus christ Itachi would kick the shit out of Pain if he had to fight like that.
Avoid it from the beginning like Gai did and that worked splendidly.
What I was saying is that Chiyo agreed and even had a way to fight an eye-based genjutsu user in a team of two (have one always avoid eye contact and get in the Sharingan user's blind spot to break it).
It's not that dadudemon didn't know what I was talking about--in fact I made it unambiguously clear--he purposefully misinterpreted it after he realized that illusions are something you get caught in.
See, if any of the six paths are caught in the visual illusion all of them will be trapped. Since there is no out that can help them get out of it, Itachi can freely slit their throats one-by-one. Regardless, let's get back to the actual argument.
You're assuming that Nagato has enough intel on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes.
Furthermore, Itachi can cast visual illusions by raising his finger. There is no safe way for Nagato to fight Itachi and Nagato's fighting style is based on his vision.
Even if he manages to avoid all illusionary techniques Itachi still has Susanoo.
This is two one-sided battles and Nagato has no chance in either of them.
Wrong: you didn't know what my point was. I still maintain that you were just plain lying to be right.
Prove that all of them will be trapped if it specifically affects the brain of the path and has no path back to the real pain, then prove that it bounces off the real pain and then infects all of the other pain bodies, and then prove that Itachi doesn't have to use 6 times the amount of chakra (which it is very intensive to use, to begin with, much less spamming it six times against six bodies that know not to look into his eyes, which negate the entire point of using it to begin with), please.
I'll wait for your reply.
You're assuming that Nagato doesn't have enough information on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes when he was:
1. The de facto leader of Akatsuki.
2. Recruited Itachi.
3. Employed Itachi on missions for Akatsuki.
4. Itachi used tsukuyomi once or twice since being with Akatsuki.
That's a pretty big assumption on your part...and far more likely to be incorrect especially if you assume that Nagato knows nothing about avoiding eye jutsus when he was trained for years by a Sanin.
I guess you missed the whole part of why this particular line of reasoning fails?
The point is to avoid Tsukuyomi, not genjutsu, period.
There's plenty of other bodies for regular genjutsus.
And Nagato still has Chibaku Tensei which Itachi has no way to counter.
Sure, if you would like to ignore everything one side has to bring to the table.
No, I knew what your points were, both prior and post the change of them. I've already pointed it out.
They share the same vision and mind. The reason the toad confrontation chant didn't work was because they didn't share the same hearing.
Bounces off?
It's one mind. The bodies are dead puppets whom's eyes Nagato can see through.
He wasn't the leader, Tobi was.
Most likely on Madara's accord.
Most likely through Tobi's orders.
First on Kakashi and then on Sasuke.
Jiraiya trained them for years? No. Jiraiya simply trained them so that they could fend for themselves. Besides Jiraiya didn't avoid eye-contact with Itachi when he saved Naruto.
No, first and foremost the point is to avoid visual illusion period. Because the six paths of pain are visually connected.
Based on what? Itachi definitely knew how to counter it when Nagato used it on him. You could argue that he needed Naruto's spiraling shuriken and B's beast bomb in order to overcome it completely but there's no evidence for that.
Let's do a logical recap: X + Y + Z > T {does not make} T > Z
We know for a fact however that Itachi could one-shot Nagato with the sword of Totsuka, because he did.
On top off all this we still have the author agreeing that the Mangekyō sharingan is the most powerful eye-technique as opposed to the Rinnegan which was simply addressed as the most noble.
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Oct 17th, 2011 02:14 PM
