That's very true, but we can conclude it from this standpoint.
By Act II: The mid-level Jedi Knight, Tol Braga and some other Jedi are easily crushed by the Emperor. But by Act III the Jedi Knight is able to defeat the Emperor.
Dooku...doesn't do a lot of flips he is a Makashi practitioner. And I don't think ANH Kenobi is > Count Dooku. Dooku is just a particularly gifted duelist and force user
I am pretty sure GL said that Sidious threw the fight.
Except that's not true anymore. GL even said that he never considered the Clone Wars series and the Movies to be separate. And also there is a reason G-canon is the highest canon.
His canon is the highest canon. Lower level canon cannot override higher canon in order to account for continuity errors.
Yes the most powerful of the most powerful of his era. Sidious appeared after the Narration so GL's Sidious is the strongest still stands. And even if Ragnos was after Sidious, G-canon material still outweighs the C-canon material you referenced.
1. The Jedi Knight in TOR is pretty much a master swordsman of his or her era, so anything they accomplish is of epic levels.
2. The Sith Emperor was drastically weakened between both fights as well.
ANH Obi doesn't have to be better than Count Dooku, he just has to MOVE more than he does. Dooku may not be a ninja like Yoda, but he's demonstrated the ability to bodily dodge multiple attacks from various foes (a feat which is mostly only replicated by the uber-fast Yoda) and he does a considerable front-flip in RotS right before he engages Obi and Ani.
Point being, GL's glib explanations aren't astounding well-thought out statements which withstand all scrutiny besides "blind acceptance". This is the same individual who admits he didn't create a backstory for Anakin's scar, and he likes to think the Jedi got it "slipping in the tub". Let's ignore that tubs are almost extinct according to EU ('freshers are usually stall-like or sonic-based) and iirc, there's already another justification for the scar which doesn't sound like total BS.
If you intend to argue Gl statements outside of movie-only canon, then prepare to have it slung back in your face in the worst possible way.
GL has admitted that Sidious was lying when he claimed he was "too weak" etc., but the victory of Mace beforehand was legit. And considering he was able to face-kick Sidious and take him out of the fight, I'd say Mace is well above Sidious in martial prowess.
So if you say Sidious > all Sith absolutely, then Mace > all Sith absolutely, since Mace is clearly Sidious' superior.
You're losing yourself here. I've not stated that the Clone Wars series is divorced from GL-centric movie canon. That aspect wasn't crucial to our debate and hence I did not indicate it for clarity. And as for G-canon being the highest canon, well duh. It's the closest to GL's vision, period. It'd be like Tolkien having a new branch of Expanded Universe that's not written by him or his son. That would be a departure from Tolkien's vision of varying degrees, depending on how faithful or stupid the author was who created it.
SW is no different. The canon policy is to determine which pieces of SW media best fit GL's vision. That's it. It's not to determine power levels, something we seek to establish here through reasoning and substantiated arguments. Not slinging around absolute statements without context or consideration.
Read above. If no higher canon exists for certain characters, events, etc. than you cannot say it is "lower canon" pertaining to those characters or events, etc. Revan's "highest canon" consists of anything made by Bioware, including three games, a comic book series, and a novel at this point. Technically, part of the Bane novels as well. That's Revan's "G-canon", because GL himself is not part of the equation.
Same goes for any EU character whose appearances are strictly EU. Now movie characters which star in EU material require mediation. For example, Dark Rendezvous states that on neutral ground, "perhaps only Mace" would be Dooku's equal. This statement is not mirrored by GL at all. In fact, some have argued that because Dooku is not explicitly listed in people who can defeat the Emperor, he is lesser than Mace Windu. So the knife cuts both ways.
Nowhere does it specify "of his era". You're feeding that interpretation in yourself.
Actually, Sidious was always first, and the Dark Empire comics which show Sidious at his peak came before any references to Ragnos. Veitch, who made the Dark Empire comics, worked with Kevin J Anderson on the Tales of the Jedi and so on, and the two introduced Ragnos. If anyone is the expert on Sidious' peak level power, it's Veitch. GL's statements about Sidious' power don't make a great deal of sense in the context of EU because he's largely ignorant of it.
Let's examine what I'm saying here.
1. GL is not the ultimate overseer of EU. He strives for a minimal amount of control in some things, but most writers are free to do what they will.
2. Thus, GL is not responsible for EU characters nor their levels of power in reference to his own.
3. GL's absolute statements exist for the purpose of SW canon. SW canon is defined as being the hierarchy of what SW works are the closest to GL's vision. The canon stance is the farther from GL it is, the "blurrier" or "fuzzier" it is as gospel.
4. When characters or events appear only in EU and do not originate from GL, it's impossible to determine what his vision is in reference to this new original inventions. SW canon merely regulates it to "less than movie/Clone Wars series canon", but does not address absolute statements or power levels.
5. Therefore, when you use GL's absolute statements to make an argument for a movie character against an EU character, you lose your ability to argue conclusively because your entire stance is dependent on GL knowing all characters absolutely. Which he most certainly does not.
GL has admitted EU is "not his world" and he does not police it nor is he informed on all of its workings.
Ergo, GL's absolute statements about Sidious are absolutely valid only in context of "his world". When we introduce EU and argue EU as a valid construct (and not simply dismiss it as "not GL's vision" or too fuzzy to determine how valid, etc.) we must construct arguments using EU sources as well as movie sources. If two sources about movie characters conflict, the movie/G-canon ones are considered more valid.
This is an extremely simple process to understand, and an easy one to abuse for confirmation bias, apparently.
GL: This quote from an interview in the August/September 1999 issue of Star Wars Insider is also notable:
"Part of the job of the director is to sort of keep everything in line, and I can do that in the movies—but I can't do it on the whole Star Wars universe."
In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:
STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
Here, this is incredibly interesting:
During ShoWest 2008, Lucas gave an interview where he mentioned the difference between "his world", "the licensing world" and the "fans' world":
Interviewer: "Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?"
Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."
If GL is the absolute arbiter of all things SW including EU (protip: he's not by his own admission), then anything post-RotJ didn't happen.
I concede that GL has no real care about the EU.
However, Leland Chee on the other hand is the official chief of the EU.
And he has said "Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."-
That's nice. Unfortunately, that statement did not accurately reflect what happened in the movie. If you're going to pick and choose, don't expect any leeway.
Whether it was an even fight is debatable however the quote says no such thing. And yes, Yoda was "bested" as he was defeated (by either ill luck or Palaptine's power).
That he didn't win is understandable. That he decides to flee when the stormtroopers come doesn't constitute defeat. That fight was as plain a stalemate as can get.
Really? Show me that plz. And it's not straight up defeat, it's a straight up stalemate. If I wanted to nitpick, Yoda disarmed Sidious in between scenes so he WAS winning.
If you have the link to the commentary I could look for it. As it is have no way to access it but if you do have the movie with you one could check.
It was a defeat. At the end of the duel, Yoda was in the far less favorriable position and was forced to flee... Ergo defeat. Furthermore, the very source in question, a canon piece of evidence, says he was defeated. They only thing claiming it was a stalemate is your interpretation of the scene.
So? What truly matters is what happens at the end not the beggining and middle. I've never seen any one claim the duel in RotJ was a stalemate because Vader was winning throughout the majority of the duel... Regardles, Sidious disarmed Yoda later on.
It's clear you don't like the quote but you are attacking it in the wrong way. Not what it says, "contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides" There is simply no timeframe given and I would interpret it as most powerful practitioners of the time not of all time.
1. I can't find this quote being directly attributed to Leeland Chee anywhere. Source please.
2. The only time I see this quote and it isn't being rabidly repeated by a pro-Sidious debater somewhere is the discussion page on Wookieepedia. Again, there it is referenced as the entry from the SW Database at least around 2009. The Database no longer exists, and it's debatable who wrote all those articles anyways.
3. Chee is allowed to address continuity discrepancies. He is not allowed to arbitrarily make power levels, especially since he is not the creator of ANY characters within the mythos at this point. His job is to police EU for major errors, not write it into a consistent cohesive narrative that makes complete sense to GL's word. If he did, all post-ROTJ games and books would be removed from the canon, and guess what? It has not.
I heavily recommend using something other than blanket statements to support your arguments.
But blankets help keep statements warm and safe from threats.
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Dec 3rd, 2011 03:17 AM
