Majority of DKM were powerhouses; they wouldn't have made it to the Council without being (super) strong. Whether, some of them lasted long or not is another story. To maintain position in DKM, both power and smartness were important factors. Sometimes, luck would run out.
For example: Thanaton was a remarkably powerful and clever Sith Lord and he did not last a day in DKM. Their is a whole (Sith Inquisitor) story dedicated to ground realities of cutthroat competition in Empire of Vitiate.
Dooku haven't schemed his way through millions of Sith rivals to acquire great power in an Empire. Sidious facilitated his rise to power actually. So how good Dooku may do in a genuinely extremely competitive setting is open to speculation; Sith Lords like him or better then him have fallen easily in history of competition for positions in the Dark Council of the ancient Sith Empire of Vitiate.
This cannot be proven. Its not so much about era; Dooku might be a stand out in many time periods of galactic history but its not necessary for him to be a stand out in every kind of setting and Empire.
Heres another quote:
"The green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters."
-Page 170
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Have Dooku routed whole Republic armies? Defeated (immensely) powerful foes in single combat? Controlled dark side entities? Demonstrated Nihilus like telekinetic capabilities? Collapsed large buildings? Unleashed FL potent enough to burn even powerful Force-users to ash or overcome a lightsaber oriented defense? Inflicted pain in his surroundings by his mere presence? Absorbed dangerous Force Spirits? Made his body virtually indestructible?
Dooku is decent but he have his limits. No need to promote him more then he deserves.
This is common knowledge. Same can be inferred for many notable figures of the ancient Sith Empire created by Vitiate.
He detached a bridge from its support, if I have heard correctly. Otherwise, show me proof of your claim.
Dooku is decent in telekinetic aspects but not extraordinary.
Dooku didn't defeat Windu actually. It was a brief encounter in which Dooku enlisted aid of some droids to tackle Windu to make way for his escape. In a fair encounter, Windu is most likely to win.
Yoda, regardless of his remarkable power and skills, his hindered by his mindset; his refusal to go all-out on Dooku on Geonosis with his Force abilities, afforded the latter a chance to outwit him; his passivity got him almost killed in the very early phase of his encounter against Sidious. And yes, other remarkably powerful Force-users can do well against the likes of Yoda and Mace if they make good decisions.
And these guys are as battle-hardened and powerful as DKM? Give me a break. GG represents the finest example of PIS in the mythos till date. Any reasonably competent Force-user should be able to reduce GG to spare parts with Force powers.
It is in the novel.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 20th, 2013 at 11:05 PM
Sorry mods, but I just had to break my promise and quote this.
How could you possibly condemn Grievous for benefiting from CGI, whilst valiantly defending a video game series where a human soldier can literally bull rush through several charging, armed sith with casual indifference (Hope trailer)?
That Dooku is explicitly among the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 years, and an even greater sith lord, to the capacity where he is heads and shoulders above everyone short of Yoda, and eventually Windu, on the prime Jedi council, speaks volumes about his abilities. That he can effortlessly tool strings of saber prodigies not only designated among the greatest duelists of all time, but also explicitly masters of all seven lightsaber forms, puts him on a level beyond the actual, demonstrated abilities of most of the dark council. To suggest otherwise would be to argue that the TOR is orders of magnitude beyond anything we see in the movies, which is...you know, contrary to explicit canon.
Legend, I like you man. You seem to know more about StarWars then these PT humping faggets on here.
The simple fact is Dooku would get a smack down from any Dark Council member. And in general, was about equal to your average Sithlord during Vitiates time.
Awesome calcs Pencilcrayon. And this is G-canon. Basically Dooku pushed Obi-wan with 3 Megatons of power.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
I am not saying that Grievous is the only character who benefited from PIS but he seems to have topped the chart. Why a cyborg is so hard to dismantle with Force powers?
The soldier that you referred to in Hope trailer is the most renowned one in the galaxy; Jace Malcom. Bioware promoted him a lot in Hope trailer. I admit that some level of PIS seems to be involved in his promotion, but aren't the most renowned soldiers able to hold their own in battlefields?
The statement such as "among the most powerful" sounds impressive but we do not know the exact level of his relative position among the Jedi in the context of power. He may rank last among TOP 500 and still qualify for "among the most powerful" accolade in 25,000 years of history of the Order. Such is the level of ambiguity in these kind of statements.
Also, it is important to understand that whose POV this assertion about Dooku represents: Dooku himself? Anakin? Obi-Wan? Sidious? An outsider?
Dooku was a renowned and famous Jedi by all accounts, but why should we assume that he is better then all those who came before him?
You think that DKM could not be superior swordsmen? This is foolish assumption. Individuals outside DKM have been exceptional duelists; individuals inside the Council were typically among the best of the best. Also, "mastery of the Force" is more important then sheer technical proficiency in bladework for Force-users. Reason is that Force-users use The Force to augment their physical capabilities, anticipate moves of the opponents in advance with great clarity (and prepare themselves to counter such moves effectively) and also use Force powers to subdue opponents. The higher the mastery level of a Force-user, the more overwhelming he or she can be in combat situations accordingly.
Their are lot of contradictions in Star Wars mythos. Authors themselves take sides. Continuity exists in story aspects of the mythos but not in power progression of characters on timeline basis.
Vitiate will effortlessly subdue and annihilate Dooku. Individuals as (and more) competent as/then Dooku have served him and stood no chance against him.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 21st, 2013 at 12:12 PM
Sorry, mods. But I don't think one-shotting is very sportsmanlike.
Your Malcom-apologist argument applies even moreso to Grievous. At least Grievous is superhuman (and among the "most renowned", or infamous, duelists) and has been personally trained by Count Dooku. I could turn your argument on itself and ask you why none of the various sith Malcom bull rushes didn't just snap his windpipe.
Except clearly not, because Yoda considers Dooku to be "our greatest student", and he's been training Jedi for almost 800 years. Dooku's on a higher level of legendary even than, say, Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto.
OOU narrators and encyclopedias, for one.
Strawman, did I ever say he was better than all those who came before him? He just has superior feats and vastly superior accolades to the vast majority of the dark council members you assert without evidence to be his peer or superior.
You could make the (weak) case that many of those dark council members could match him in Force ability, should you provide substantive feats/accolades, but none of them have his reputation or demonstrated ability as a "consummate duelist", and your argument basically boils down to "they could be greater than him".
Here we go again; "exceptional" and "among the best of the best" don't put them on Dooku's level. Cin Drallig was certainly "among the best of the best" and a master of all lightsaber forms, but Dooku would easily trash him. Kit Fisto was among the greatest swordsmen of all time, but would stand no chance against Tyrannus.
The burden of proof is on you to establish that relatively featless characters, who are lower in their [canonically inferior] era's totem pole than Dooku is in his own, can match blades with the Count. This burden is not relieved by suggesting they may be "exceptionally skilled", nor is it relieved by speculating that they could be on his level.
And? Dooku explicitly has a high level mastery of the Force, so much that Stover's novelization suggests, when Zone-Anakin is tooling his ass, that defeating his mastery of the Force was a greater feat than overcoming his technical abilities, through use of the word "even".
Furthermore, superior Force ability only gives you the victory relative to its magnitude compared to the disparity in technical skill. Case in point; Kas'im w/jar'kai vs. Bane.
Feel free to provide feats from these mid-tier council members you think can overwhelm Dooku purely through superior Force power, then. I seem to recall Dooku's having monstrous feats himself.
George Lucas overrides said authors, though. And I'd hold my tongue before claiming your TOR authors are "taking sides" with the intent of elevating their characters above the PT powerhouses; Exar Kun wankers were severely disappointed when KJA went on record putting Kun and his other ancient sith creations "on a firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.
Stop apologizing to the mods. Nobody here has any respect for Ushgarak. He flies in once a week to ban "socks", socks get remade, forum operates fine for the next week and so on. There's no mods here, really.
Computer assisted pilots aren't capable of utilizing the full specs of their machines, but the Jedi with their force assisted reflexes will. The clones still beat the droids in many cases due to better decision making and ingenuity despite the droids' advantage over them.
Tri-Fighter droids have reflexes approaching light speed, so they have no reason to cap themselves on doing so. And these machines are even faster than the X-Wings.
"Some were lost to simple collisions, flying at near-relativistic speeds through very, very crowded space."
Some computer assisted pilots died flying at that stated speed, but they didn't have the reflexes of a Jedi to avoid collisions. They were in combat as well.
Malcom-apologist argument? Why didn't Han Solo and Boba Fett die in so many conflicts and dangerous situations (what is so special about these two)?
I at-least admitted PIS in case of Malcom's performance on Aldeeran. Are you willing to do the same in case of Grievous?
Malcom benefited from his (special) body armor by the way. Also, he would have died on Aldeeran if Satele had not interfered.
Grievous have history of fighting multiple Jedi simultaneously and prevailing. I mean, Jedi are supposed to be superhuman beings too, are they not? More importantly, Jedi have Force powers. And still?
On one occasion, Aayla Secura, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Kruhk, and Tarr Seirr engaged Grievous in combat and all failed.
My point involves 25,000+ years of history. Their is big difference between 25,000 and 800 years of span. Also, much of that 800 years period represents time of peace during which Jedi grew "out of touch" of their ways. Dooku noticed this development/decline; this is why he eventually left the Jedi Order.
G-canon characters are central to SW mythos; this is why they receive more hype then their EU equivalents and superiors. If hype is overlooked, Dooku isn't a big thing in the mythos.
Also, revelations in older sources are valid for the content of that time. SWTOR is a recent but very big and ambitious project involving exploration of a big chunk of the lore. Its revelations can be fairly assessed only in the future sources.
Really?
Vast majority of DKM haven't been explored much in the lore thus far unlike Dooku. But those who have been, do not seem to be inferior then Dooku in the ways of the Force; in-fact, several well-known ones seem to be noticeably superior.
DKM are typically among the most powerful Sith in galactic history by the way. I have posted evidence. Look at it.
I am working with logical reasoning. Its not necessary for every DKM member to be deeply explored in the lore and get fancy accolades like Dooku did, because that is too much work for the authors at the moment. However, canon sources reveal that it was immensely difficult to become a Sith Lord in Vitiate's Empire; only the mightiest and smartest of the Sith would become Sith Lords in this Empire. Now competition for DKM upped the game even further for these Sith Lords. Fact is that Dooku haven't been tested in ways like these Sith have been; ground realities of his story and era are vastly different in comparison.
Individuals such as Dralling and Fisto are useless examples to consider because we have concrete evidence of them being inferior to Dooku, regardless of the accolades they have received. These two individuals are a JOKE in comparison to powerful Sith of Vitiate's Empire as well.
Analogy:-
Sith Lord Pravan doesn't have fancy accolades attached to his name but he have this history:
During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi's most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma's young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.
Praven isn't a DKM and he is not an exception to the norm either. Speed wise, Praven once blitzed and killed 3 opponents simultaneously in single attempt before they could react. Power wise, even HoT acknowledged Praven as an individual of substantial strength because the latter defeated Jedi Master Kiwiiks in single combat whom HoT knew well in person.
I have repeatedly pointed out before that great technical proficiency in lightsaber dueling or martial arts is not a decisive advantage for a Force-user unless such skill is complemented by decent mastery of the Force. Dralling and Fisto were great martial artists but they sucked in Force mastery aspects. Both of these individuals evidently lost to superior Force-users in duels (Dralling versus Anakin; Fisto versus Sidious). Fisto lost to Ventress as well.
I am not part of the administration which owns Star Wars lore, so I cannot offer this "proof" you desire. What I can offer is a logical assessment like I did above.
You "believe" that Dooku would trash all exceptionally skilled duelists that preceded him but I do not agree with this assessment. You offered examples of individuals who are acknowledged as exceptional duelists but are inferior to Dooku to make an argument in favor for the latter but your argument is useless because you overlooked a very important aspect of the inferiority of the examples of exceptional duelists whom you cited; individuals such as Fisto and Dralling are "evidently" inferior to Dooku in their understanding of the ways of the Force. This is not the case with many other exceptional duelists who existed in TOR era.
Anakin packed immense raw-power which he could sometimes utilize effectively, if in a right frame of mind. Also, some sources depict Anakin demonstrating Dooku level or superior Force abilities. Anakin himself reminded Dooku that his powers have doubled since the last time they met. Some assert that Anakin was a peer of Dooku in Force abilities. In addition, Dooku's loss aboard Invisible Hand had circumstances attached to it; Dooku was tasked by Sidious to put Obi-Wan out of commission but lure Anakin to the dark side. Dooku just did this and paid the price.
Check my responses in page 7 for some details.
GL doesn't interferes with works of EU authors; he is authoritarian of G-canon works only by his own admission.
Also, GL no longer owns Star Wars; he is now an adviser just like other authors.
That was decision of KJA; no one forced him to make such a statement at gunpoint or did somebody?
Authors in Star Wars are as much split over promoting their works and glorifying their favorite characters as fans of the lore are. Some authors habitually glorify PT/OT era characters and some authors habitually glorify characters of different eras. Their is no official list of strongest Force-users; their is no official consensus on these matters at all. Fans are left with never-ending arguments on these subjects.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 21st, 2013 at 02:58 PM
- Daniel Wallace habitually wanks PT/OT era characters a lot; his works confirm this. He is particularly a staunch fan of Sidious and Yoda. James Luceno is also in the same boat; hypes PT/OT era characters a lot.
- Pablo has apparently gone neutral recently; his most recent work seems to suggest this. He used to be a promoter of PT/OT era characters previously.
- Chris Avellone promoted/hyped ancient era characters a lot. Some Bioware authors have similar mindset and doing the same thing.
- Leeland Chee thinks that The Father is the strongest Force-user ever while some EU authors consider Abeloth to be the candidate for this position.
Its a mess honestly...
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 21st, 2013 at 03:07 PM
Sep 20th, 2013 10:36 PM
