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Sauron vs Gothmog
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KillaKassara
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Sauron w/ring decimates.

Essentially, Sauron was given everything he had by Melkor's machinations of Arda and by the corruption of the Ring. He never used too much of his own energy on corrupting Arda, so he preserved almost all of it till his final destruction.

Sauron was a lesser Maiar than Gothmog perhaps, but with that ring he's more powerful. Even without it he is a greater Maiar than Mithrandir, so perhaps he was stronger than Gothmog - as Gandalf was able to throw down one of the lesser Balrogs (and was technically greater than the Witch King, especially as the Head Wizard).


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Old Post Feb 18th, 2014 02:31 AM
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Sauron should win with ease. There isn't too much competition in this one.

Old Post Feb 25th, 2014 04:09 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You've assumed that all First Age elves are universally superior to all elves otherwise, period, etc. and then taken this measurement directly to oppose what you perceive to be the arguments of others. I don't think you're getting any closer to the truth by this line of thinking.

First off, one does not need "First Age" feats to be equated to First Age characters. This is a benchmark you have assigned without any basis in text or deed. Third Age Glorfindel > First Age Glorfindel. There's nothing inherently awesome about the era that makes people uber. If you insist that there is, you need to provide some proof from the source material.

If you can't prove up using the text, then you must concede the point.

Now, to humor you, there is the implication that those who have seen the light of the trees possess a lightness of spirit, a fire in them, a near-divinity that made them fierce enemies for Morgoth. However, this doesn't help Gothmog at all concerning FŽanor. FŽanor had been fighting for ten days before they crossed swords, and was well ahead of the main body of his army, with just a few mooks in tow. Gothmog had an indetermined amount of Maiar/Balrogs around to help him circle and kill FŽanor, and even then the elflord fought on for a long long time.

Comparatively, Sauron took Luthien out in no time at all. Luthien, who with a song, bewitched all of Angband. His magic and power was superior to hers. Then there is, like Nemebro suggested, his feats against ManwŽ's storms/eagles, and his seven-year defense of the Siege of Barad-dŻr (which he nearly broke just by appearing outside of his gates at the end) and then he destroyed Elendil and Gil-Galad alone in combat. Gothmog hasn't killed anyone in combat solo; the one lone battle he had he lost to a low-level, unarmed and dying elf.

So the reality here is, you have NO FEATS OMG HURR to defend Gothmog, unless you amend the thread title to "Gothmog and his band of cronies".



Gil-Galad lived for 80 years before the breaking of Angband, and then a further 3441 years of the Second Age. In any case, the time in which he lived doesn't negate his power. Elrond, his herald and second-in-command, was both older and descended from a Maiar, yet considered lesser in power.



You should have looked it up before you posted. This is the internet age of multi-tabbed browsing. There's little excuse.

In any case, Gil-Galad stayed with Cirdan and the elves of the Haven until after Gondolin fell.



Why should you "remember correctly" anything? You should be rereading the material or using supplement material to reinforce your memory. If you did indeed read the source material in full.

This isn't "IMO IIRC THIS IS TRUE" debating here.



Ecthelion, guard captain of the reclusive city of Gondolin, fortunately killed your hero Gothmog in clumsy unarmed combat while mortally wounded.

Versus two individuals who bottled up Sauron in his keep for years and slew him in combat without being wounded or damaged before the fight in anyway.

Sure thing bro.



What difference does it make? All Maiar have been around since the beginning of time.-



Why must a concession be made? You are saying that all warband leaders are explicitly the strongest, because they are warband leaders. This is circular. Gothmog may indeed be the best Balrog to have ever lived, and a threat to all his underlings. This doesn't impact his inferior status against Sauron. Sauron, who has better solo combat records, better magical ability usage, and who is explicitly described by Tolkien himself as the greatest darkness and danger besides Morgoth himself.

Mothmog almost didn't get a name, so you know how awesome Tolkien intended for him to be.



... Or just being outright ignorant of source material.



Why would Sauron need to duplicate Gothmog's job? You could look at it as Sauron has far better talents of planning, manipulation, and creation as a Maiar of AulŽ's order, and either stayed more by his master's side or did his own independent projects. Gothmog's position as warband leader does not explicitly tell us his overall pecking order.



Morgoth never lead any troops in battle; Gothmog did.

Gothmog > Morgoth?

LMAO



This is retarded here.

lieu∑ten∑ant
lo͞oˈtenənt/Submit
noun
noun: lieutenant; plural noun: lieutenants
1.
a deputy or substitute acting for a superior.
"he accepted his top lieutenantís resignation with deep regret"


Morgoth's forces weren't using conventional US Army ranks or anything. Morgoth was the undisputed leader of his own forces; Sauron was his most trusted lieutenant (not Lieutenant), his second in command, and Morgoth was a captain (not Captain) of the forces. Tolkien served; he would not be so dense as to make a mistake or transpose ranks had he decided to use them. He did not. There are no 'private Orkk-Grubbnuks' or "Petty Officer First Class Groogg" among Morgoth's ranks.



I don't get what this even means. Eru created everyone; he can kill everyone. Nothing is outside of his power, so what does this prove?



Galadriel did pretty much nothing in the First Age of note, avoided most major conflicts and skated by. She was Gil-Galad's vassal in the Second Age with her husband. It wasn't until she met Celebrimbor and received one of the Rings that she started to be a powerful Lady in her own right and was later regarded as one of the most powerful of elves on Middle-Earth in the Third Age.

Pretty much, the only time Galadriel is considered a threat to anyone is well after Elendil and Gil-Galad are in their graves. [/B]


During the Siege though He never appeared before the very end. What is so impressive about holding up in the fortress till you no longer can? There isn't anything impressive about that at all. The facts are, first age elves have the better feats. You can say well there is no reason for this, but that doesn't change the fact that's true. Second and Third age elves don't have the feats to match 1st age elves. Absence of proof isn't proof.. that isn't how it works. There needs to be PROOF that third age elves can and have completed the same knida feats as first age. We don't don't go.. ohhh they should be able to do the same stuff they just never did. nice try though, and we'll just go ahead that first age elves have the better feats.

Actually it does in the LOTR verse. The strongest are put in front way more times than not. There are always exceptions, but for the majority of people and fights the best were out in front and leading the charge. Melkor not leading the charge proves next to nothing. You're basically saying The Vice president (Sauron) is more powerful and a better leader/fighter than the general in the trenches. This couldn't be further from the truth and the analogy we have here. It's one thing to okay thing and give orders but not want to risk too much so you stay indoors. But still give the okay to things or oder things. Sauron was doing NEITHER. He wasn't put out to lead the troops and earn victories nor was he in charge of sending out the order or making the plans.. Melkor was. Which is the point.. he was NETHER.

Well Neme was claiming that Eru couldn't even kill Sauron if he watned to.. I sure hope it was him and not you.. because if it was you.. that was pretty idiotic of you. Anyways, it came up because I was mentioning the one of many times Sauron has been killed.

Think about it... It took Gandalf days to kill a inferior Balrog to Gothmog. This is after a super long fall which obviously would've hurt the balrog. You mix h2h combat with lighting and magic and it still took that long to kill him This is a maiar mind you that took that long to kill one. Sauron was killed by conventional weapons in a vastly shorter period of time by an inferior enemy. Care to explain that? This is an inferior Balrog were't talking about.. Not the Lord of the Balrogs and High Captain of Angband. It took Gandalf THAT long to get the job done with weapons and Magic. It took 2 elves exponentially less time to Kill Sauron with conventional weapons. Huge difference in durability.

What it comes down to is this...

Gothmog has beaten better foes (indisputable)

Gothmog was the captain and leader of Melkor's forces not Sauron. Sauron didn't do jack shit but practice his magic in the fortress while Gothmog handled business

Balrog's were meant to be brutes and fighting Machines. I will concede that Sauron is a more powerful Mage and better in the dark arts. He was even a better politician. He could be all those things but it doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was a more powerful fighter and foe. that is what they did and what they were about. Sauron was no warrior... Gothmog was and it showed in the battlefield.

Old Post Mar 13th, 2014 08:40 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
During the Siege though He never appeared before the very end. What is so impressive about holding up in the fortress till you no longer can? There isn't anything impressive about that at all.


Actually there is; against the combined forces of the Elves and Men of Middle-earth, Saurons mere appearance nearly broke the siege. This is far more evident in the books than in the film, and it is only because of the heroic sacrifice of Gil-Galad and Elendil that Sauron bites the dust.

quote:
The facts are, first age elves have the better feats. You can say well there is no reason for this, but that doesn't change the fact that's true.


Proof by assertion. Elrond and Gil-Galad are First Age Elves, in that they are born during the First Age. Elrond is actually older, and part Maiar, and Galadrial/Celeborn older still and have the benefit of seeing the lights of the Two Trees of Valinor, yet all of them are subservient to Gil-Galad.

quote:
Second and Third age elves don't have the feats to match 1st age elves. Absence of proof isn't proof.. that isn't how it works.


So you claim it is the case; therefore it is? What are you even pretending to accomplish here?

quote:
There needs to be PROOF that third age elves can and have completed the same knida feats as first age. We don't don't go.. ohhh they should be able to do the same stuff they just never did. nice try though, and we'll just go ahead that first age elves have the better feats.


Ultimately, this is a red herring. Gothmog hasn't killed anyone alone; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't shown any higher levels of magic; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't nearly broken a siege by just showing up; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't killed a soul without being backed up by an unknown amount of cronies; Sauron has.

You don't have an argument.

quote:
Actually it does in the LOTR verse. The strongest are put in front way more times than not.


Proof by assertion. Morgoth did not rule from the front, and he is explicitly the strongest agent of evil in the universe.

quote:
There are always exceptions, but for the majority of people and fights the best were out in front and leading the charge. Melkor not leading the charge proves next to nothing.


Yes, it does. Melkor could curbstomp Sauron and Gothmog combined. Evil only respects might as right. The hierharchy goes Morgoth > Sauron > Gothmog = Dragons > Balrogs > Everything else.

Just saying "THIS IS SO" is not an argument; that's baseless refuting. Learn to debate, noob.

quote:
You're basically saying The Vice president (Sauron) is more powerful and a better leader/fighter than the general in the trenches.


No, Tolkien is, and the evidence is as well. You're just being stupid because you think Sauron is a mere politician and Gothmog is some battle hardened warrior, even though Sauron can kill people with his bare hands (he burned Gil-Galad alive) and Gothmog can't kill anything up to and including a maimed and dying elflord without his posse.

Again, you have no argument. QED.

quote:
This couldn't be further from the truth and the analogy we have here. It's one thing to okay thing and give orders but not want to risk too much so you stay indoors. But still give the okay to things or oder things. Sauron was doing NEITHER. He wasn't put out to lead the troops and earn victories nor was he in charge of sending out the order or making the plans.. Melkor was. Which is the point.. he was NETHER.


This is all pointless. Sauron was explicitly stronger than Gothmog. Tolkien himself all but says it, and Gothmog has not killed anyone by himself.

Again, for the umpteenth time, you have no argument.

quote:
Well Neme was claiming that Eru couldn't even kill Sauron if he watned to.. I sure hope it was him and not you.. because if it was you.. that was pretty idiotic of you. Anyways, it came up because I was mentioning the one of many times Sauron has been killed.


Eru, if he was so inclined, could kill anyone. But his attack against Numenor, while not directed at Sauron himself, caused a shit-ton of collateral damage. Damage which Sauron mostly mitigated and escaped.

Gothmog hasn't shown that kind of mastery in anything, save for being the First Age equivalent of a gang leader.

quote:
Think about it... It took Gandalf days to kill a inferior Balrog to Gothmog. This is after a super long fall which obviously would've hurt the balrog. You mix h2h combat with lighting and magic and it still took that long to kill him This is a maiar mind you that took that long to kill one.


Gandalf the Grey is explicitly holding back, even while fighting the Balrog. And he died anyways. There's a passage on the wizards not being able to strive against Sauron with their full Maiar might because it would destroy Middle-earth if they did.

And even then, Saruman, Gandalf the Grey's superior in might if not in wisdom, was afraid of Sauron and knew he would lose alone.

quote:
Sauron was killed by conventional weapons in a vastly shorter period of time by an inferior enemy. Care to explain that?


You're retarded if you think the weapons of Elendil and Gil-Galad were "conventional weapons".

quote:
This is an inferior Balrog were't talking about.. Not the Lord of the Balrogs and High Captain of Angband. It took Gandalf THAT long to get the job done with weapons and Magic. It took 2 elves exponentially less time to Kill Sauron with conventional weapons. Huge difference in durability.


Except that you don't know the durability difference between Durin's Bane and Gothmog; they could be exactly alike but one has a captain's garb. There's no evidence to suggest any superiority other than rank and having a legit name.

And as I said above, you're outright stupid if you think the weapons of Gil-Galad and Elendil were conventional weapons.

quote:
What it comes down to is this...

Gothmog has beaten better foes (indisputable)


Gothmog has defeated no one.

Gothmog with an unknown number of other balrogs has killed before, such as Feanor who had fought for ten days continuously and was without much backup (absolutely no named elflords were with him in the vanguard and even then, Feanor made Gothmog and co. work hard for it).

Gothmog died to Ecthelion, who was maimed and dying, from a helmet spike and water.

Helmet spike <<<<<< Narsil/Aeglos.

quote:
Gothmog was the captain and leader of Melkor's forces not Sauron. Sauron didn't do jack shit but practice his magic in the fortress while Gothmog handled business


Lol. You don't know what the **** you're talking about.

quote:
Balrog's were meant to be brutes and fighting Machines. I will concede that Sauron is a more powerful Mage and better in the dark arts.


Since mages are always more powerful than mere brutes, you concede that Gothmog loses any fight and is inferior.

Thanks!

quote:
He was even a better politician.


Lol.

Yes, because getting orcs to vote for him was part of his job description.

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quote:
He could be all those things but it doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was a more powerful fighter and foe. that is what they did and what they were about. Sauron was no warrior... Gothmog was and it showed in the battlefield.


You haven't demonstrated that any of this is true. And as I've noted above, much of what you're saying is false. You can't even directly provide source material for your claims, which further indicates you are arguing out of your ass.

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Old Post Mar 17th, 2014 07:32 PM
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Sauron killed a soul? I'm curious now


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Old Post Mar 19th, 2014 04:50 AM
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Old Post Mar 20th, 2014 02:59 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
During the Siege though He never appeared before the very end. What is so impressive about holding up in the fortress till you no longer can? There isn't anything impressive about that at all. The facts are, first age elves have the better feats. You can say well there is no reason for this, but that doesn't change the fact that's true. Second and Third age elves don't have the feats to match 1st age elves. Absence of proof isn't proof.. that isn't how it works. There needs to be PROOF that third age elves can and have completed the same knida feats as first age. We don't don't go.. ohhh they should be able to do the same stuff they just never did. nice try though, and we'll just go ahead that first age elves have the better feats.

Actually it does in the LOTR verse. The strongest are put in front way more times than not. There are always exceptions, but for the majority of people and fights the best were out in front and leading the charge. Melkor not leading the charge proves next to nothing. You're basically saying The Vice president (Sauron) is more powerful and a better leader/fighter than the general in the trenches. This couldn't be further from the truth and the analogy we have here. It's one thing to okay thing and give orders but not want to risk too much so you stay indoors. But still give the okay to things or oder things. Sauron was doing NEITHER. He wasn't put out to lead the troops and earn victories nor was he in charge of sending out the order or making the plans.. Melkor was. Which is the point.. he was NETHER.

Well Neme was claiming that Eru couldn't even kill Sauron if he watned to.. I sure hope it was him and not you.. because if it was you.. that was pretty idiotic of you. Anyways, it came up because I was mentioning the one of many times Sauron has been killed.

Think about it... It took Gandalf days to kill a inferior Balrog to Gothmog. This is after a super long fall which obviously would've hurt the balrog. You mix h2h combat with lighting and magic and it still took that long to kill him This is a maiar mind you that took that long to kill one. Sauron was killed by conventional weapons in a vastly shorter period of time by an inferior enemy. Care to explain that? This is an inferior Balrog were't talking about.. Not the Lord of the Balrogs and High Captain of Angband. It took Gandalf THAT long to get the job done with weapons and Magic. It took 2 elves exponentially less time to Kill Sauron with conventional weapons. Huge difference in durability.

What it comes down to is this...

Gothmog has beaten better foes (indisputable)

Gothmog was the captain and leader of Melkor's forces not Sauron. Sauron didn't do jack shit but practice his magic in the fortress while Gothmog handled business

Balrog's were meant to be brutes and fighting Machines. I will concede that Sauron is a more powerful Mage and better in the dark arts. He was even a better politician. He could be all those things but it doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was a more powerful fighter and foe. that is what they did and what they were about. Sauron was no warrior... Gothmog was and it showed in the battlefield.


It's been over a month.

Concession accepted.


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Old Post Apr 28th, 2014 09:32 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's been over a month.

Concession accepted.


laughing


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