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Morgoth vs Sauron
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Supra
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
He is. He is Tolkien's Satan.



He was "the greatest created power". Basically he is second only to Eru aka God (with a capital 'G'') in the beginning. Why he was created by Eru to be so powerful? Who knows.


Many follow the bible, as did thissmile


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:33 AM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And again, Morgoth is Melkor's name before he invested most of his real power into Middle-Earth.

You got the names backwards, Melkor was his name as an Ainu.

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2014 12:12 AM
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Stealth Moose
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I know that. Ares already said as much and I admitted as much. Try reading more next time.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 01:45 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.


YOu have it backwards buddy... he was Melkor first and then Morgoth...

Tell me moosie.. how easily does Mace pwn Dooku in saber combat?

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 05:36 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Are you also incapable of reading an entire thread before you reply? Half-cocked must be your nickname for various reasons.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 05:47 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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Are you mad you have no clue what you're talking about? It's okay moosie don't get your panties in a bunch.

So back to Mace pwning Dooku.. LULZ

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 06:11 PM
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Your initial quote

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOu have it backwards buddy... he was Melkor first and then Morgoth...

Tell me moosie.. how easily does Mace pwn Dooku in saber combat?


From Page 1

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oh you're right. Whups. What a simple mistake too.


Earlier on this page

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
You got the names backwards, Melkor was his name as an Ainu.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I know that. Ares already said as much and I admitted as much. Try reading more next time.



What you just said

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Are you mad you have no clue what you're talking about? It's okay moosie don't get your panties in a bunch.

So back to Mace pwning Dooku.. LULZ


(please log in to view the image)


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2014 03:04 AM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.
Pretty sure that Melkor is stronger than Morgoth. thumb up

Oh, and Morgoth was apparently too weak to withstand Arien's gaze. And well, Sauron is the mightiest of the Maiar (Save maybe Eonwe I think his name is).


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Last edited by NemeBro on Jan 6th, 2014 at 06:46 AM

Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 06:44 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Melkor, who was previously Morgoth, was the mightiest of the Ainur, which are basically tiers of godlike or angellike beings in Tolkien's mythos.

He had the power to basically subjugate and corrupt a small minority of Valar and Maiar, and had basically terraforming powers among other things in the beginning. He single-handedly created the orcs from captured elves.
"Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 06:45 AM
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Melkor>Morgoth


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 06:51 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
"Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.


Tulkas is listed as physically the strongest Valar of all, and excels in close unarmed combat and runs faster than anything alive. So it's a given he wins most fights. If you are looking at more magical like applications of divine power, Melkor surpasses Tulkas by far. His earlier battels with the Valar reshaped Arda.

Also, Manwe technically was the ambassador of uber-God and could call down his wrath in a hot minute, making him arguably the most powerful being in Arda.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Pretty sure that Melkor is stronger than Morgoth. thumb up

Oh, and Morgoth was apparently too weak to withstand Arien's gaze. And well, Sauron is the mightiest of the Maiar (Save maybe Eonwe I think his name is).


Manwe's herald, and he's explicitly noted as being the best at arms. Whereas Tulkas is a huge buff guy, Eonwe could pretty much outduel anyone, bar none.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 10:26 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
"Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.


Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Manwe's herald, and he's explicitly noted as being the best at arms. Whereas Tulkas is a huge buff guy, Eonwe could pretty much outduel anyone, bar none.


True, but I wouldn't give Eonwe the edge over Tulkas. After all, Tulkas doesn't use weapons.


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Last edited by ares834 on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:12 AM

Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 11:10 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tulkas is listed as physically the strongest Valar of all, and excels in close unarmed combat and runs faster than anything alive. So it's a given he wins most fights. If you are looking at more magical like applications of divine power, Melkor surpasses Tulkas by far. His earlier battels with the Valar reshaped Arda.


Only Melkor's magical prowess apparently doesn't mean dick when Tulkas runs up to him and punches his face in, lol.

quote:
Also, Manwe technically was the ambassador of uber-God and could call down his wrath in a hot minute, making him arguably the most powerful being in Arda.


Melkor, even after imprisonment, is the "mightiest being in Arda". This is directly stated by the narrative when Feanor slams his door in Melkor's face.

quote:
Manwe's herald, and he's explicitly noted as being the best at arms. Whereas Tulkas is a huge buff guy, Eonwe could pretty much outduel anyone, bar none.


I'd like to hope that Tulkas would easily overpower Eonwe and beat his face in, actually. Powerful Maia he may be, he is still but a Maia.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 08:59 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.


Where is this all stated?

I mean, as I said, Melkor was still the mightiest being in Arda even after imprisonment. That didn't stop Tulkas from punching his face out the back of his skull and putting him in chains to begin with.

I think, in Melkor's case, though he is very powerful, he is too much of a cowardly little girl to bring it to bear in combat. Because he is a coward and a fool.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 09:00 PM
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ares834
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It's in an essay Tolkien wrote which is found in Morgoth's Ring.

"Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power).(1) (He was to make I devise I begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.) Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.

The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'.(2) Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a powerlevel with the Valar."


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 09:08 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Yep. In fact, I just reread a few pages of The Sil while waiting for an appointment and it confirms that before investing his power into Arda, Melkor was able to contend with the sum of the other Valar, and was explicitly the strongest of any of them and riches in divine gifts of Eru.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.



True, but I wouldn't give Eonwe the edge over Tulkas. After all, Tulkas doesn't use weapons.


No, Tulkas would probably still win. He's just a Lightning Bruiser of epic levels. However, if Eonwe had to sword duel someone, he's explicitly the best at it, bar none. A very limited scope when compared to Melkor or Tulkas, but against other Maiar, elves, or Numenoreans, he would stomp.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 09:34 PM
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ares834
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Yeah, my bad. I put that backwards... Meant to says Tulkas would beat Eonwe.

Edit: Actually that is what I said.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 09:42 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, my bad. I put that backwards... Meant to says Tulkas would beat Eonwe.

Edit: Actually that is what I said.


OR DID YOU?

Also, your level of Tolkien knowledge is impressive, sir. I salute you.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 10:21 PM
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What I read in The Silmarillion dictates that Melkor was indeed able to contend with the combined might of all the other Ainur... Until Tulkas showed up, in which case Melkor ran and hid like a little girl.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 10:23 PM
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You mean after countless ages of fighting with the combined might of the other Valar, to the point of rearranging the face of Arda in countless battles? You mean at that point? Tulkas tipped the scales; he didn't solo Melkor at full strength.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 10:30 PM
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