Very interesting from Thing. But are there more than those two occurences? Because there are several more fights with Hulk I believe, and a fight with Thing vs Colossalnaut where he just tries to outbrawl him despite being the weaker of the two.
Actually Ben tries a bit more than that, but it's easy to miss.
For starters, it was actually a bit of a double team; C-naught was actually knocked over to Ben by Red Hulk; he made the mistake of thinking all he had to do was finish Peter with a simple ground and pound.
When he discovered Pete was tougher than normal, Thing actually showed resourcefulness by trying to get Pete to choke or trigger his gag reflex, something by Ben's own admission he had never attempted before.
I was actually debating using that to help make Sandman's case, recalling that Juggernaut actually seemed to show some small discomfort at being smothered in the wet cement Spider-Man used to finish their battle.
But I could not recall if Colossusnaut actually possessed the full forcefield Classic Cain Marko did. Certainly Classic Cain could be touched despite it, Spider-Man could not have blinded him, or held on long enough to make him stumble into that cement foundation if Classic Jug could not be, to say little of what Rogue was 2 or 3 times able to do.
Recall now the following, though, and realize that, besides pinpoint throwing accuracy, Thing DOES demonstrate thought beyond that of a pure brawler, and will use his environment to gain advantage in a rough enough engagement:
I don't recall every Hulk/Thing battle.
I don't even HAVE every Hulk/Thing battle.
Visiting ODG's Hulk Respect Thread, specifically the "Fight" Section under "Thing" (NOT Fantastic Four, which will give you slightly different entries even for the same quoted issues) will give you a number of hits, though.
I suspect you'll find, with the possible exception of "Pineapple" Thing versus Hulk Doombot and "Mr. Fixit" Gray Hulk, that Thing is a thinking fighter that does indeed take into consideration who his opponent is and how he might handle them.
Actually, even with "Pineapple" Thing, where Ben at first IS just being a brawler, precisely because he wants to see if he's FINALLY able to match against Hulk's strength with his own now greatly increased strength
(a result of the mutation that earned him the "Pineapple" nickname from fans to begin with),
Ben Grimm demonstrates the ability to stop, re-examine what is happening, and try something NEW on his opponent.
In that Hulk Doombot battle, for instance, where Doom
(though not actually the builder of that robot Doctor Doom is the one that sends it after Thing)
tries to make Thing believe the robot is the real deal,
Ben snaps-to because he realizes in every case before, he was stopped by Hulk's strength steadily increasing while they fought.
That's an extraordinary difficulty to overcome, but Pineapple Thing realized he wasn't experiencing it here.
So he realized the ONLY Thing this Hulk could be was a fake, likely a machine.
Ben switches tactics, and goes from conventional brawling to applying straight pressure. The machine cracks under it, revealing this "Green" Hulk was just a ruse of Doom's.
It's like that in many Hulk battles, though.
Ben realizes Hulk is stronger and cannot be met ONLY with brawling.
He brawls to the extent necessary to put some OTHER plan in motion, often one that his partners executing the true "put away" part. He is largely distracting or delaying Hulk in those cases, and he KNOWS it.
Notice that when he is bereft of partners, though, Thing tries to use his environment to compensate, and, in either case, actively avoids being a pure brawling tank. And, yes, this includes battlefield removal (BFR) of his opponent, if only to move his opponent to a place where innocents won't be harmed, and, as you saw in the FF 25/26 affair, somewhere with resources he thinks might even the odds.
Actually it was a scan in my collection I happened to be flipping through that REMINDED me of that FF battle; Thing actively trying to BFR Hulk by railcar, which mirrored that scene you saw of the Yancy Street Gang trying to remove Hulk from Thing with that rolling wagon-like vehicle.
Unfortunately, unlike in the FF 25/26 battle where he just springs surprises on Hulk, and which he would not do if fighting to the best of his ability as KMC protocol dictates, Thing makes the mistake of TELLING Hulk he is trying to BFR him ...
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I'll use LoebSupergirl to illustrate the basic strategy for dealing with ground limited tanks like Juggernaut.
Of course, Ben will need to struggle a LOT more to achieve this than Kara would, but it's worth posting the basic idea and reminding that Hulk, Rogue, and Spider-Man have all achieved this.
First, I should make clear that, unlike many a poster on KMC, I have little if any problem with the premise that ANY character who can be taken down with physical punches can be taken down with a single punch, as a general rule.
Second, I will certainly allow that there is some Thing versus Juggernaut engagement that I missed and am not aware of.
But if you are trying to use what I THINK you are trying to use to say Jug one-shotted Thing ...
well, that's not QUITE what happened.
For, more than likely ...?
You're referring to Secret Wars II #7.
Where Mephisto has some plan he names "Beyondersbane" that involves empowering Thing and a host of others to take on the being known as The Beyonder (pre-Retcon) long enough for a powerful machine to destroy ALL of them.
Thing, massively empowered by Mephisto, for reasons explained in the article obtained by clicking this blue hyperlink below
(article contains multiple images from the comic itself) ...
... faces the Juggernaut after being subsequently and fully DEpowered, though Ben mistakenly thinks he still has the mystic might that enabled him to take on score of villains, some even as powerful as Absorbing Man, oft time THOR level opponent.
IN that mistaken belief, having just a moment ago had power enough to tank everything the group threw at him, Ben wrongly believes he can take anything Cain can dish out, too.
He's not one-shotted, but Ben IS caught off guard, and is beaten down in a few panels.
Not one, but a few.
And, again, he was only caught by the first because he mistakenly thought he still had power that, more than likely, WOULD have enabled him to take Cain's best.
What's significant about this, though, and relevant to the discussion, is that even after taking a beatdown barrage from Juggernaut, Ben still reveals strength enough to physically topple Juggernaut. He grabs Juggernaut's foot midstride as Jug advances on the Beyonder, and brings him down to the ground facefirst.
So we're shown Ben does apparently have strength enough to grab Classic Juggernaut and physically move him. Directly.
Even as Hulk did before him, and as Rogue would a little later.
(Or earlier. In the case of Rogue, I'm not really sure when the battles took place. All of this was sometime round the mid-80s, if memory serves.)
And, as shown before, not only does Ben have the tendency to try and "re-locate" his opponents to more suitable venues mid-battle, or even BFR them completely, Juggernaut's physical mass has proven manipulate-able by Spider-man level tactics.
In the event that he can't move Juggy himself, he can simply pick up whatever Juggy himself is standing on, and throw BOTH of them as far away as possible.
Given Ben's strength, that should be quite far, Fantastic Car and other vehicles, which he HAS been shown to use midbattle (driving a vacant speedboat and forcing Hulk away via railcar in 2 separate) in NYC, notwithstanding.
Again, in New York City, where Juggy has demonstrated an INability to avoid sinking either in water or wet cement, Thing should be able to move Cain somewhat at will, and, at the very least, delay and remove him far enough to score the BFR the poster of this thread asked for.
This is Classic Juggernaut, with no PIS/CIS, fighting at his full capability right? Meaning his force field should never ever be off. Thing wouldn't be able to touch him or move him in anyway. Lifting the ground he's standing would would require Cain to pretty much stand still and let him do so. In a forum fight that would never happen
Even with his forcefield on Jug has to obey the laws of gravity, and it doesn't take anyone beyond Spider-Man level to rip up the street somebody's standing on.
You show me where Juggernaut, no matter HOW "Classic" and forcefielded, has ever been able to resist the ground beneath him being moved or destroyed.
Prove to me even conceptually, beyond your screenname, why you even think he SHOULD be able to.
It's something that takes less than a second to accomplish, and, even back in the 60s and 70s Juggernaut had no answer for this.
The simple fact of the matter is, Juggernaut is not super-speedy in comparison to Thing, and Juggernaut cannot fly.
So he can't entirely prevent BFR of this sort.
Thing WILL get BFRs in whole or in part, if he's fighting his best.
It's what he does.
At least in New York City.
It's only a matter of how often that will out against whatever it is slower, ground-bound Juggernaut tries to do in return.
Juggernaut surprised Beast with his speed. (please log in to view the image)
Juggernaut utilizing magical energy orbs. (please log in to view the image)
Using a spell to shrink Nightmare. (please log in to view the image)
His unstoppability enchantment prevents him from sinking in water. (please log in to view the image)
This fight will be a lot more difficult for thing if we're using Classic Juggernaut with all his feats. Not only will it be impossible to get past his force field, him trying to dig up the ground means he'll be vulnerable to Cain punching him in the back or the back of the head. And this is ignoring the magic that Cain has displayed.
The key point in this debate, as it pertains to Ben and Cain, is that no one is really down playing Cain or his abilities.
Ben on the other hand was being low balled until cooler heads prevailed.
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Sep 25th, 2014 08:32 PM
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