Not going to comment on everything in this wall-o-text. Just going to reiterate a few points...
-Goku was on Namek(in the rejuvenation chamber) and sensed every version of Freeza. EVERY version. He even commented on Freeza's power increases every time he transformed. IOW, he knew what level of ki Freeza possessed in ALL of his transformations--his perceptions were definitely NOT limited exclusively to Freeza's 4th form.
-Tarble was essentially exiled in space during the entire Freeza fiasco. Therefore, he would have ONLY known about 1st form Freeza--so when he said that Abo/Kado were each>Freeza, he would have been referring to 1st form Freeza. Logic dictates that Goku was using the same comparison as well(you'll see why a little later.)
-Beerus stated that base Goku, without any explicit power-ups(ie. Kaio Ken), was < Freeza. Beerus knew about 4th form Freeza. Logic dictates that he was comparing Goku to 4th form Freeza. Neither King Kai or Goku disagreed with his assertion--to the contrary, they actually AGREED that Goku was weaker: (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
-Because of the above info, we know that Abo/Kado were clearly NOT 4th form Freeza-level, because the boys were able to easily stomp them in their base levels, without powering-up... And the boys are certainly NOT > base Goku, who is < 4th form Freeza. Again: Abo/Kado MUST have been 1st form Freeza-level.
In summary: Beerus states that base Goku < Freeza. Goku and King Kai AGREE WITH THIS. Therefore, base Goku's PL < 120m by proxy. Your opinion doesn't supersede in-film fact.
Lastly, the most recent info=the most canon. So even IF you believe there is a contradiction here(I don't), Toriyama contradicts himself ALL THE TIME--that's how he's always rolled. In BoG, for example, Goku could breath/talk in space just fine. In RoF, however, he inextricably could not... Things like that.
They only sacred her after transforming into Super Saiyans--which makes sense.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 30th, 2015 at 04:08 PM
Yes, when Goku thinks about Frieza's power, it's only natural he's speaking of the Friezas he only sensed.
That's a severe reach and you know it. Frieza was the fight of Goku's life and the turning point to where he became SS. You really think when Goku reflects back on Frieza he goes "Oh, well he must be talking about the power I was sensing when I was in a machine, not the power I sensed when I had the most epic fight of my life."?
But Goku outright stated Frieza in his entirety was not much of a foe. He didn't break it down into this form or that form, he said "Frieza". Because he wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and it makes perfect sense that two years later Trunks and Goten could be Frieza level at base.
I'm not saying Tarble knew of other forms, though I like how you ignore this logic for Beerus knowing the power of other forms (besides the flashback), considering how much he sleeps and how little sense it would make for Frieza to showcase them.
I'm saying Goku's statement stands on its own merit. Because Goku knows all about the limits of Frieza.
Why are you being so dishonest here? Is it really that important to you to lower Goku's power level that you'll just use shifty Long Pig tactics to try and prove your point?
You had to go and screenshot this and you left out what King Kai was actually replying to: (please log in to view the image)
He's saying he knows well about the transformations. No one even had time to react to him saying he's weaker than Frieza. And the fact that the conversation shifted completely over to transformations afterwards, means that that became the more important topic.
Nor would him even admitting to it mean much. What you say later is the most recent canon is the most relevant, but the most recent canon doesn't disregard showings and other statements when it's from a vague source (Beerus) with ulterior motives (Goku not pissing off Beerus so he doesn't blow up King Kai's planet).
We don't throw all logic out the window just because a statement was made by a guy who can't sense ki. That's not exactly proof.
Let me edit that into your post so the conversation isn't missing key pieces.
Well, if we follow this logic, it means that Trunks and Goten are only around 1st form Frieza level in their base.
What that means is that Goten/Trunks are only around as powerful as Vegeta was when he fought 1st form Frieza.
And what that means is that they are only 50 times more powerful, which would make them weaker than fp Frieza. Which would make them way too weak to give a good fight to Android 18 in their base forms.
And we'll follow some of the things you've used to pump them up that are now impossible:
They are too weak to cause SS Goku/Vegeta to exert themselves in a sparring session
They are took weak to scare Android 18 with a blast while in SS form.
They are too weak to outdo Gohan's kick on Buu and inflict damage to Buu.
They are too weak to get Piccolo to sweat when they power up to max.
Keep in mind, this was 2 years after all of this too, when they would logically be stronger. So if two years after all this they were only first form Frieza level, how'd they accomplish this? How would they beat Piccolo working together who was above Android 17 level? How Galan?
Nope. Your misinterpretation and leaving out facts don't supersede this.
Goku being weaker than Frieza exists in only one bubble spoken by a guy using heavy assumptions and who had a supremely high opinion of Frieza.
Which goes against a lot of canon.
Well, if we follow this logic - and let's - then let's go by the most recent info.
Dragonball Super episode 3. Vegeta says Goku is now the number one most powerful being after the defeat of Buu. This would make him more powerful than Gohan. This would make him more powerful than Gotenks as well. Now we connect the dots since the multipliers are the same and we compare SS1 Goku to SS1 Gotenks. SS1 Gotenks by Vegeta's statement is weaker than SS1 Goku. Which would mean Base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza's final form. Which would mean SS1 Gotenks is not 50 times stronger than Frieza.
Oh my, did we end up back at the same place from the special? Where SS1 Goku completely showed up SS1 Gotenks?
So if we go by the most recent information... it would go right back into the special where I asked you if base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza.
But go on and tell me how Vegeta's opinion on people all around him and he knows quite well mean less than Beerus' opinion on a guy he just met and Frieza who he assumed was the most powerful being behind him in the universe.
Also, to tie this into GT (ignoring God form). Apparently Goku is under Frieza level 3 years after the end of Buu, but then in 12ish years his base shoots up into Kid Buu level. Makes sense.
If he can then that makes it even worse since the scouters from Tarble said he was really low (as well as Kabo/Abo saying Trunks/Goten were really low) and he was read at 5000 when he mudstomped Recoome.
Considering he was in the same state when Beerus gave him a once over it would make sense he was read at that level.
If Beerus can sense ki of course. If not, then well... how inaccurate either way.
You're the one doing the reaching here, bran. Goku clearly sensed the ki of ALL Freeza's transformations while he was in the rejuvenation chamber on Namek. Tarble compared the boys to FIRST FORM Freeza. Randomly assuming that Goku was referencing 4th form Freeza is entirely your opinion... Because we know for sure that Tarble was not.
Except Tarble had no knowledge of Freeza's additional forms because he was exiled for years on some remote planet--so we know that he MUST have been using 1st form Freeza as a measuring stick.
Again, you're trying to supplement fact with your opinion.
I'm not ignoring your 'logic'. I'm using FACTS from the film/show. Beerus/Whis clearly knew of 4th form Freeza, and explicitly stated that base Goku was weaker than him. Simple.
Wasn't trying to be. IF that is indeed how the dialogue is laid out in the film(I'll have to look for myself), then it was a legit mistake on my part. I'm at work, so I pasted that pic from a years-old post I found. I can't actually watch the film myself here.
Calm down with the unwarranted bashing, though. I've stayed quite civil with you, and would appreciate the same courtesy.
It's the best and most recent proof we have. You're ignoring Beerus' statement, along with the fact that King Kai and Goku didn't disagree with said assertion, because you're upset that it doesn't mesh with these preconceived levels you have in your head. Doesn't work like that.
There is a reason Toriyama had Beerus make that statement... And it certainly wasn't to showcase how inept the God of Destruction is at judging an opponent.
Not true. Base Goten/Trunks didn't power-up at all during the fight, and they were still decisively in control. The ONLY time Abo/Kado appeared to do well was when they split apart... And that was ONLY because the boys weren't adept at reading their ki. Prior to(and after) that, the boys were FAR more powerful than them.
This renders the rest of your hate-filled rant on the subject irrelevant.
He wasn't just making an 'assumption'--that is merely your opinion. So far as we know, that statement is 100% fact... Which is likely why Goku and King Kai didn't disagree with it. I say again: there is a reason Toriyama had Beerus make that statement... And it certainly wasn't to showcase how inept the God of Destruction is at judging an opponent.
Moreover, what legitimate reason do we have to assume that Goku's base PL WAS beyond 4th form Freeza's/120m..?
Lol, and this surprises you? Have you NOT noticed how large of a steaming shit Toriyama has taken on EVERY Z Fighter who isn't named Goku or Vegeta in the current continuity?
GT is non-canon to Z, so this part of your rant is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 31st, 2015 at 02:17 AM
It seems to me like Bills was only suggesting that he wanted to see Goku go SSJ. And even if he wasn't, Goku CLEARLY wasn't at full power at that point. His aura wasn't even showing. So he was relaxed/suppressed.
Either way, it doesn't make sense that Supreme Kai is so much stronger than Frieza, and Goku in base is stronger than Supreme Kai, yet Frieza is still stronger than Goku. That's the reason I don't take that statement at face value. Also, coupled with the fact that Frieza's dad in ROF told him to never fight Bills or Buu, yet left out the four Supreme Kai's, each of whom could kill him with a single blast.
Toriyama's just forgetful, like he always has been.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Goku's baseline power-level, without powering up via Kaio Ken and whatnot, was sub-Freeza-level. There would have been NO reason for Toriyama to specifically include that piece of dialogue unless it was intended to be fact. Imo.
Eh, what? No way in heckfire was base Goku more powerful than Supreme Kaioshin.
Lol, no doubt. He's one of the most forgetful/inconsistent writers in the game.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 31st, 2015 at 09:37 PM
Ah, okay. It seemed to me like you were saying that Goku was definitely weaker than Frieza, pre-BOTG's.
Idk, Toriyama has included way more silly things without them being true. Hell, he had us believing that Super Vegeta was still stronger than Perfect Cell for a while, until #16 said Vegeta was going to die.
Yes, he was stronger than Supreme Kai, in base. Supreme Kai was SCARED of Yakon, saying that he was "extremely dangerous". Goku in base form was handily beating Yakon, even after being teleported to a planet that was devoid of light. Goku only went SSJ to demonstrate how pointless it was for them to be on a light-less planet, since he could generate his own light. Either way, Supreme Kai was very scared of Yakon, and Goku pwned him in base. Plus, it was implied by Vegeta that he was stronger than Kibito, who was presumably around equal to Supreme Kai. Idk, what are your thoughts on this? It always seemed to me like Supreme Kai was weaker than the Saiyan's, and even Piccolo.
Yes though, lol. One episode, Goku is blocking a planet busters sword with his index finger, and the next, he's getting nearly killed by a grunts laser beam, lol.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Where raw power is concerned, I think:
Perfect Cell=Dabra >> Supreme Kaioshin >> Piccolo >>>> base Goku. Kaioshin's psychic powers were also very powerful.
He also noted that each of the 5 original Supreme Kaioshin(which would obviously include himself) could have felled Freeza with a single blow... Something I definitely don't think base Goku could have done: http://i.imgur.com/h21B1sI.jpg
Anyway, at the very least he could psychically paralyze base Goku(which forces his defenses to completely drop), and proceed to KO/kill him with pretty much any type of attack thereafter.
As for Yakon: I didn't get the impression that Supreme Kaioshin was necessarily scared of him. I think he was simply not aware of how powerful Goku was at the time(he'd only seen Goku's base level up to that point), so he offered his assistance during the fight in order to help end things quicker. Supreme Kaioshin was definitely scared shitless of Dabra, though--and Dabra was Perfect Cell-level... So we know he doesn't stand a chance against that order of power for sure.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Aug 2nd, 2015 at 01:10 AM
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Jul 30th, 2015 04:04 PM
Non-canon, but I feel that's how it should go...
