Hmm, no not entirely. I'm sensible and open to all debates.
But bias isn't something that really matters to me, it's more less the over-rating of Vrook and the addition of his non-canonical feats that bother me.
Have I used said feats in the past? Yes with Jaden and Alora... when I was relatively new to debating, not anymore.
You can be biased to an era, or have a favorite character among them, and still be able to make a valid point for them.
But Vrook has nothing canonical to showcase in this regard. Add to this Nova's intent to regard Vrook as a master of several forms when his form is very much dependent on game mechanics and we go back to the same debate he and I had on Shaak vs Meetra.
1 - Okay fine, I'm stuck in traffic. Here are the facts.
Vrook has shown no difference in power in the LS path or DS path.
Yes he has, he's dueled the Jedi Exile who by now has bested Zez, stalemated Sion and learned Drain. He's able to TK a party of three which he's never done in canon at all.
And lets take a moment here. Let's pretend I accept this feat.
It still doesn't change that the Exile had just fought several mercs and kinrath prior to this. So Vrook fought someone who had just come out of combat.
Vrook paralyzed the Exile!!?
Yeah... in the LS path... where she offered no resistance.. at all.
Also DS path? He died.
He helped rebuild the Enclave?
Coolio, he had help from others, perhaps they banded together to assist one another, perhaps they needed concentration, perhaps they struggled.
Impressive feat, no context to it.
He's mastered various force forms?
Show me, exactly where it say he mastered them.
Show me how that's relevant to a fight with QGJ's saber mastery?
Vrooks shown himself to be a bullrusher fighter by fighting Mercs and rushing to assist the Exile, he does this here and force combat won't even matter.
Ah but that seems like I'm just glancing at it, his force forms aren't really anything special, one will drain his power quickly and leave him exhausted, the other is too conservative and will only assist him in rejuvenating his force reserves...while under the onslaught of QGJ. And this is all assuming he even knows them.
My stance isn't permanent, I think quite a number of characters could best Qui-Gon, not Vrook. Just because I don't think YOUR character could beat QGJ doesn't mean I don't think others can, that is your assumption, not fact.
I don't hate Vrook, I dislike your insipid use of N-canon feats or vague feats, and how you pass them along as "facts" when it's not at all the case. KoTOR 2 is among my favorite games, I've talked with Sinious about it several times, even on occasion i(used to) speak with Sas and Skillz about it. Your assumption of me isn't fact.
I've nothing against you, your stance on DS canon and LS canon paths conflicts with how things on the true path were done. That's it.
Also, no thanks, I always go through all sources myself.
See, a character having few feats and the getting more doesn't constitute a power disparity. I was asking you to give me reasons as to why his DS incarnation would suddenly be more powerful. Otherwise, it's the same Vrook, under different circumstances and events. There's absolutely no reason why the creators would have the Jedi Masters get stronger in the DS version.
Also, the Exile doesn't necessarily have to have fought Zez or Sion first before fighting Vrook.
With fellow party members, and fighting Mercs is supposed to tire you? Just because you left combat earlier doesn't mean you're tired/strained/going to perform worse, especially given that the Exile is clearly a being of high stamina and may have already learnt Force Affinity before this.
LS path doesn't mean you have to select "I submit to this punishment". You can select the non-DS option of resistance, which is "I won't give up the Force - stop this". Even if you choose to resist, you get placed in Stasis. I believe the same occurs if you select "The first one who touches me dies".
We all know DS paths constitute story differences for almost every character. Power differences, however? Not for every character at all, usually just the protagonist and certain party members.
Even assuming it's a struggle, it's a feat beyond Qui-Gon. Do we have reason to believe that three Qui-Gon's are powerful enough to telekinetically reconstruct the Jedi Enclave? And that's assuming Zez and Kavar are Vrook's equals in the Force/TK, which they aren't based on portrayal alone.
Maybe "mastered" is a strong word, but he was fluent in their use, which is something he can use against Qui-Gon in a Force-related battle. He was at least skilled enough to teach Surik how to use them and then comment on her sloppy technique.
I said in a Force fight. Regarding lightsaber combat, aside from multi-Form Mastery, Vrook's a confirmed superior to Kavar, who was one of the Order's most famed Jedi Warriors and experienced war fighters in an era said to be the Jedi Order's "summit". It may not be accurate, but it does at least suggest that the average Jedi of the time are rather skilled, and Kavar was among their best. Vrook being his superior means he can at least hold his own against Qui-Gon in sabers only.
We don't even see his fights on-panel, so we have no idea whether or not he integrates Force powers into combat.
Affinity will let him regenerate his Force reserves more efficiently, and under the demands of Ataru, Qui-Gon would tire more quickly. Whether Vrook would last long enough to take advantage of this is up for discussion.
As for Potency, in a Force-related contest, that's a viable option. Vrook already has the better Force feats, so Potency could just make it a more conclusive victory on his part.
Ironic that you should use the term "onslaught", because that's exactly how the Prima Guide describes Vrook's lightsaber attacks.
Which he does.
Well, these debates always revolve around our take on game-related canon. I just don't see a reason as to why his DS incarnation would be written to be any more powerful than his LS counterpart. It's really just the same Vrook doing different things as a result of the different story.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
I kinda miss Star Wars Logic tbh
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Sep 19th, 2015 12:11 PM
Thanks Scribble!
