Precisely. I posted that earlier. In this thread, iirc.
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
And? That the wicked will be punished shows that God is vengeful, not that he is moral. That God allows GOOD people to suffer when he could easily stop it without any cost to himself shows that he is morally negligent.
I don't think God is necessarily evil for making innocent humans suffer for the sins of Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge (which he created, mind you.) I view him as either a mischievous and/or misguided attention-whore. Someone like Porky Minch from Mother 3.
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"Farewell, Damos... Ash, Pikachu... And you. All of my beloved." -- Arceus
The only reason we don't execute convicted criminals immediately is because our justice system, which is fundamentally based on the idea that it is not omniscient, decrees that convicted criminals deserve an appeal. The idea is that even though a criminal may be convicted in a court of law, our system is not perfect and a conviction is not absolute proof that the criminal committed the crime, thus they get multiple chances to attempt to prove that they're innocent.
As God allegedly sees all that was, is and shall be, there is thus no reason to wait before passing judgment. If our courts had the ability to know with absolute certainty whether a person was innocent or guilty there wouldn't be any delays between sentencing and execution. They'd be taken out of court and executed right then and there.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Evil is a relative concept. If a mouse had any awareness of morality it would likely consider us evil for attempting to kill it and its constituents with traps after they move into our homes.
God's actions have resulted in the suffering of billions of people, are performed purely for self-serving causes and with full prior knowledge of the consequences. According to human morality, you can't really get any more evil than that.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Last edited by Tzeentch on Dec 9th, 2015 at 09:13 PM
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
Whoever said Satan had power above God needs to not reply.
1. Jehovah didn't want to kill the devil because that would be a BAD example to the other angels. As he doesn't condone killing especially when Angels do it in heaven.
2. Satan challenged Jehovah about humanity and he accepted this but when Satan tried to take the thrown MICHAEL had to step in to handle his younger brothers.
3. Jehovah wouldn't kill his Son as he is a loving father
The better questions to be asking are: "Why did God create the Devil?", or "Why did God create sin?", or "Why did God create life to be inherently sinful?"
The obvious answer to "Why didn't God kill the Devil", is because the Devil is exactly what God wants him to be. He's omnipotent and omniscient, he theoretically can't make mistakes. God's motivations are the real mystery.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:28 AM
*sigh*... All of those questions you've asked in your first paragraph have been answered several times over in different places in religion forum. It's Christmas though and I'm in a pretty good mood so I'll save you the time of searching throughout forum.
1. God didn't create the devil. He created a perfect angel named Lucifer. Lucifer became Satan the devil thru his own rebellious actions.
2. LOL. God didn't "create sin" either. That's ludicrous but thanks for the good laugh. Sin is transgression against God's laws. So what you're claiming He did doesn't make any sense. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve willingly chose to disobey God. He gave them free will. Eve could've resisted the serpent's charms and Adam could've resisted Eve's but they chose to give in and defy God's command.
3. Likewise, God didn't create humans to be inherently sinful. All humans, except for Christ when He was in human form, inherited the sinful nature from Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had stayed obedient to God then humans wouldn't have inherited any sinful nature. That's not to say that they never would've been tempted to sin though.
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
Last edited by Star428 on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:59 AM
That's just the thing; Lucifer wasn't perfect. Rather, he was decidedly imperfect. His hubris and rebellious nature are evidence of personality flaws. A perfect creature would not sin.
If what you're saying is that God wasn't aware that Lucifer would turn on him from the start, then you're effectively saying he's not omnisicent or omnipotent. That's not an illegitimate take, but most Christians would disagree I would think.
Also, that last point doesn't refute anything I said at all. God created Adam and Eve, who were inherently sinful.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Dec 26th, 2015 at 01:03 AM
Watching O'Reilly right now. I'll answer when I have more time.
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
1. Guess I should've explained further. He was perfect in beauty but God still gave him (like all other angels and all humans) free wil. God didn't plant something in him that made him turn bad. Lucifer made the decision willingly to rebel against Him. God's creation of him was not "flawed" in any way. Sure, God could've made a bunch of slaves if He wanted to who would've never questioned Him or done anything bad but He didn't want a bunch of mindless robots.
2. Well, what you have to understand is that, as humans, our limited minds can't begin to understand everything about a being like God or His intentions or why He does some of the things He does. We can only speculate. It may seem like a bit of a paradox to you and me that He, an all-powerful all-knowing being, made a being that He knew would turn on Him eventually but that's only because we have a very limited understanding of our Creator. Maybe one day we will understand.
3. No. When He first created them they were perfect. As perfect as humans can be. He let them have free will. They made the choice to sin. No one made them. You keep acting as if God planted a seed in them that made them sin. That's false though. They could've resisted the temptation but they chose not to. The fact that God may've already known they were going to disobey doesn't change the fact that the decision was still theirs to make. Him knowing how they were going to choose didn't force them to make the decision they did. The same thing applies to your Lucifer going bad argument.
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
Last edited by Star428 on Dec 26th, 2015 at 01:44 AM
This is exactly my point; he could've made beings that wouldn't question him or do bad things, but he chose to make ones that would.
As a being of infinite knowledge and wisdom, God wouldn't do this without a reason. The next logical step is that God intended for the Devil to be what he is from the very start, which is why he didn't kill him.
Again, exactly my point. I said in my first post that the question to be asking is: Why? What were God's motivations for creating a prideful, rebellious-natured angel?
There isn't a definitive answer to the question. That, at least imo, is what makes it a good one.
A perfect being wouldn't make bad/wrong decisions.
Last edited by NewGuy01 on Dec 26th, 2015 at 01:53 AM
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