Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Yes, he connected with her. Kylo surpassed Vader in terms of power, accomplishments, and dark side. Vader lost the gal he went to the dark side to save. He lived with regret as a burnt husk. If you think that is awesome then you ignore the intention of Anakin Skywalker. Glad he procreated it led to Ben Solo and Lukes mishandlings helped create Kylo Ren.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Vader is not the best at everything. The rest might be your feelings on the character which are different than my own. Vader was 2 dimensional in the Ot films. It worked at the time but there is not much to him save the voice and body movement. We are devoid of his emotions during the films due to the mask hiding his facial expressions. Kylo showed the conflict in his motives from the beginning on when we barely even have a faint of conflict in Vader during rotj through Luke not Vader.
Lmao. Vader TKs AT-AT walkers casually and is the greatest Jedi killer in history. Ren has nothing on that. What's his best accomplishment? Killing a couple of padawans? Pathetic.
At least he lived long enough to kill Palpatine and save his son. Ren was discarded by the Emperor like a piece of trash and Rey had to save the day on her own. On the other hand, Kylo sacrificed himself a woman that stole his family name and legacy, that his own uncle and mother loved more than him.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Not true. No. He only killed Kenobi who wanted to die. Ren was there as the final Skywalker to save the girl who brought down the emperor. Vaders death is made even more less relevant by this final film. Rens actions resulted in the death of both of Anakins kids. Ren never fought the emperor it was Ben. Ben survived the fall Palpatine did not. Ben saved a life Anakin just died without ever truly stopping the emperor. Disney has truly supplanted the ot in terms of relevance and Skywalkers. They ended what Lucas began their way.
Kylo Ren can force push lightsabers energy back. Freeze bolts of energy. He truly is amazing. Best Skywalker. Ever. Saved the best for last.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
No one of note in his comic adventures. Ren dominated Rey the girl who ended Palpatine forever not Vaders empty sacrifice. Ren beat her and saved her. Truly a legend.
He's said to be the best pilot in the Galaxy, an ingenious mechanic and strategist, and is one of the most powerful sith lords to ever live.
How do you know Vader can't? Just cause we haven't seen him do it doesn't mean he can't, he just never needed to. He can absorb them into his hand, you know.
Immortal Rur, Lord Momin, The Black Bishop, the Jedi of Akkresker Jail, several giant beasts (in Vader Immortal, and a modified rancor in his 2015 comic) and even armies (in Age of Rebllion - Darth Vader).
I don't understand why you seem to like all the characters you percieve as powerful and dislike any you don't.
Also, he only dominated Rey before she had any real training. By the time she defeated Palpy (using the strength of all jedi, not her own), she's Kylo's equal.
How about his competence, and memorability as a villain?
He's shown to be ruthless, cold, calculating, and almost emotionless. He uses the mask to exacerbate that impression on others, but it's fairly clear that that's what he's really like.
I fail to see how this makes him a better character.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Luke shows him up and Han Solo is better imo as well. Vader is good just not the best. Yes one of not the most powerful or the best. He never lived up to his potential.
I know he has not and you need evidence to support him being able to do so. Ren has superior film feats. It is ok to accept it.
He dominated Rey in this last film after Lukes training. Kylo was always more skilled just was wounded and unbalanced due to killing his father.
Vader is more popular I agree but competence wise he was not that great. Never seduced Luke, never saved Padme, never usurped the emperor as Darth Vader it was Anakin because of his son.
He is cold and calculating. Some just not enough due to not seeing his facial expressions.
What makes one better or not is entirely subjective so it is nor worth arguing.
When I said "best," I didn't mean the single best, just exceptional enough that he could be expected to lead any team, whether that be a team of scientists, pilots, military strategists, propaganda communications, bounty hunters, etc. since he'd be expert in their operations.
I'm confused as to why you think Force Stasis is a unique ability. I'm fairly certain the implication was that it's quite common, which was proven in "Fallen Order" when even the average Padawan Cal Kestis performed it.
Also, what makes you think it's a "superior" feat? We have no idea as to how easy or difficult it is to do something like this. For all we know, it could be (and should be) as easy as lifting any other object.
I'm not exactly comfortable with you ignoring the comics, because the new movies were written at the same time as the comics; a time where we can and do show superhero-esque feats with the force. The Originals were made at a time when that was not as easy, therefore we see very little use of the force.
Oh. Haven't seen it, so I wouldn't know. Touche.
Not seducing Luke is more a testament to Luke's willpower than Vader's incompetency. Padme had already died by the time he became competent, and it's hardly fair to ignore someone's accomplishments because they couldn't usurp the most powerful sith lord to ever live from his seat as the Emperor of the Galaxy.
He's competent in that he can get whatever job he's assigned done efficiently. In ESB, he tracks the rebels down to Hoth, manages to have them escape with little more than their lives, successfully tricks Solo and crew, and lures Luke into a trap which would have worked if Luke had joined him. If we're counting EU, the examples are endless.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe he doesn't have that effect on you, but to me, the lack of facial expressions has always amplified his ability to express himself rather than taken away from it.
Fair enough. But you did creat this discussion simply to decide which character was "better," right?
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Just as Luke is great at everything just as Ren is all the same. Excellent pilots, fighters, force users. Nothing separates Vader from Luke or Ren in this regard.
It is not just the feat itself which was awesome but the coupling of him freezing the bolt and the reflexes to freeze it so quickly it could not travel far. Vader gets hit by multiple bolts from Han showing his reflexes are not on par plus we never see him demonstrate the ability. Ren also froze his opponents body at the same time. In terms of success far more effective than Vader and his reaction to Han.
You can believe they matter makes no difference to me at all. The directors and film makers truly do not care. That is the reality of it. Yoda resisting mountains of force or whatever dumb thing makes no difference to how he reacts to lifting an x wing in the films. Sell the books to hardcore fans but in reality they are just eu g canon stuff.
You cannot excuse both. He failed in both at the end of the day but yes Luke had resolve. If he had not been beaten by Kenobi and left for dead maybe the idiot could have altered her fate. Vader was a mess at the end of rots. Sidious was killed by a one armed Vader so entirely possible to kill him. When he actually grew a set he did not need two hands or even a light saber to hurl the girly old man to his death. He is not invulnerable. Heck Maul survived being cut in half falling hundreds of feet despite being less powerful.
Eu is fantasy so who cares. Yes, he tracks them down and loses Luke. Well done losing a guy you just beat despite having the resources of the empire. Is this not Vaders fault either? Luke has to go to Vader at the end.
Not reading a persons facial expressions does not create more emotion regardless of you believing it so. You might think its cool but it does not amplify anything other than makes us focus solely on his voice inflection to determine his expressions.
Yes, I wanted to praise Ren over Vader for being more evil in relation to Vader and more accomplished.
Luke is a good pilot and powerful with the Force, but I don't recall him being a mechanic and he's certainly not a tactician.
Kylo has never been praised as a pilot/mechanic. As far as tactics are concerned, he's shown to be reckless.
The point being, neither are as memorable as him, because neither end up using those powers to make intriguing additions to the story.
Do you believe that JJ Abrams put the bolt-freezing scene in the film to show that Kylo is faster than Vader?
And what do you think Vader would have done instead, if his reflexes were faster?
Well, I certainly won't argue that.
But in all seriousness, you're missing my point. The Original Trilogy was made at a time when it was both difficult and unprecendented to show characters using powers extensively on screen, so the feats from the movies are inconsistent. Therefore, it's unfair to argue that the feats shown in the OT are representative of the character's implied power. This effect is less present in comics.
Quotes and accolades are a better guage of how powerful the writers/directors intended for a character to be. Kylo is afraid in TFA that he'll never be as powerful as Darth Vader. Far more reliable.
Now that sounds like the Quan I know!
What was he supposed to do? His worldview was that power was everything. Under that assumption, he did everything perfectly. His only miscalculation was that Luke didn't think the same way. Now, if he had known how Luke thought, he wouldn't have joined the dark side in the first place, would he have?
Mah 'pinion>You're 'pinion
When does he express anything other than "be scared of me"? Seeing his face would have taken away from that effect, if anything.
I don't think you understood my argument. I meant that he's good at his job, which makes him an enticing villain. You know he's going to mean trouble for our heroes, every time you see him onscreen.
It was precisely his failures in the PT that carved the way for him to become as competent as he eventually did. Having a failure in your past to learn from doesn't diminish your accomplishments. And it certainly doesn't make Vader any less a heart-chilling threat for the Rebels.
So yeah, he failed as a hero. But he's not a hero. He's a villain. And he does a great job at being a memorable one.
See above
No.
Okay, I'm confused: Do you care about the creator's intent or not?
You bring up times when the intent was story-based and use it as evidence for how powerful a character is. And you bring up times when the intent was to show you what's possible in this universe and use it as an example of failure/success.
The intent with Palpatine's power was shown in the following lines:
"Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor" - Yoda
"You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master!" - Darth Vader
[Palpatine appears as a towering hologram] "What is thy bidding, my master?" - Darth Vader
"You, like your father, are now...mine." - Palpatine
These explicitly explain that he's too powerful for Vader to defeat on his own.
The intent behind the scene where Vader kills Palpatine was to show that the real battle was the emotional struggle between the desire to do the right thing, and the desire to survive/gain power. While Vader was in the "power" phase of his life, he was effectively Palpatine's slave. When Vader managed to win that battle, he freed himself from that position. It would have been pointless to have a sequence afterwards showing how difficult it is to physically kill Palpatine, since that would drive the focus away from the real conflict.
Now, this does make Palpatine himself seem less threatening, but it's fairly obvious that this was not the point Lucas wanted to make.
Alright, so now that we understand Vader, let's try and understand Kylo.
His story is that he's never had freedom of his own. He was like a slave to his various masters (Luke, The Knights of Ren, Snoke, even Vader's voice). Despite this, he's not able to find a clear goal in life. He eventually comes upon the conclusion that power must be the answer. It was for his grandfather, after all.
He tries really hard to be like Vader, even kills his own father to gain the power he thinks he'd gain if he embraced the dark side. But this doesn't get him anywhere. He's still not found his path.
At the end of TFA, he makes a decision for himself, for the first time in his life. He rejects "wise" Snoke's teachings, and tries to get Rey by his side so he can overthrow him.
She does reject him, but the greater significance of that moment is that he's taken his first step toward becoming independent.
After this point, he struggles to act like an adult in the world where he's given responsibility. This is the learning process. He has to discover himself and what will bring him peace.
He eventually does become independent, and independently powerful, when he realizes he needs to balance the Light and Dark within him.
The enticing thing about this character was never that he was evil (he wasn't), nor that he was competent (once again, he wasn't). He wasn't even the real villain, since he was never what came in the way of our heroes. He never added any sort of twist or challenge to the goal that our heroes were trying to accomplish.
The enticing part was how he srtuggled with himself. Now, the problem is, since these movies were an unconnected, retconned mess, this never really took the shape it was supposed to. TFA took too long getting to the point, and TLJ developed it too much, and put him in a position that didn't make sense for him by the end.
Now, yeah, he was powerful. There wasn't much of a way around it. But he was never meant to be liked because he was powerful. Vader was. When it comes to what made him more interesting to watch, I think Lucas said it best himself: "Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is."
Now, it's easy to want that for Kylo, since he clearly wants it for himself too. But that's not what makes him interesting, and it's not what the filmmakers wanted to develop about him.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
You saying everything is so vague and could cover cooking, sexual prowess, listening, math, spelling, etc. You used a vague term then act like see Anakin is good st other stuff. You need to be specific not using vague terms.
Luke is a great pilot as evidenced by ANH. Certainly comparable to Vader. Kylo shows his piloting skills in the films when he uses the tie fighter. Does someone need to say he is great for it to be so? As far as tactics go Vader has shown to be downright idiotic. Points to Vader trying to jump over Kenobi who pleaded with him not to try it. Kylo still had the resistance dead to rights save Lukes galaxy spanning feat of projection.
Being memorable is an opinion you have. Kylo Ren actually achieved killing his master as a bad guy when the opportunity arose Vader sat idly by for decades. He was a servant until his son broke him free out of love not a tactical advantage.
Of course not. I believe only nerds like us even care to argue who wins these guys are just trying to make a great film. Reviewing the evidence shows Rens feat is much better than Vaders in relation. Probably use his light saber to deflect or replicate his response to Han Solo. What is worse for Vader that is how quickly he reacts to someone right in front of him focused solely on Vader whereas Ren reacted to a thief in the night trying to get the drop on him outside his line of vision.
No, the technology is still there to show laser swords or reactions. We see in Star Trek with data super-speed a much faster reaction despite the pitiful budget of a tv show. We also have Vader in Rogue One thus eliminating your excuse since this was made a few years back. Vader is not just the original three films he has Rogue One and a battle scene of just his power on display. In comics the power levels could not be further away. Look at yoda struggling with debris in AotC or x wings but in comics he is manipulating much greater things. Comics really do not matter at all.
The idea of Vader not the literal translation of Vader. If Tom Brady idolizes Joe Montana because he literally did that does not prove Joe Montana is better just because he was idolized by Tom Brady. We review the evidence, their abilities, tendencies, feats, strengths, deficiencies etc. to determine who is better.
Vader never reached his potential in power due to Kenobi wrecking his body. Ren never had to lose the majority of his body or sacrifice his potential because of anything close to what happened to Vader.
So his worldview itself was so narrow minded you yourself unwittingly stumble upon the sheer idiocy of his thought process. If you cannot correctly anticipate your own sons thought process then you failed. No other way to slice it. If Anakin was not so easily led astray by fear of what might happen maybe the guy would not have been used by Sidious for decades after betraying the Jedi. Vader was weak hence him turning to the dark side. He betrayed them not the other way around.
Show his cold resolve. Facial expressions are not there just to convey inner conflict but all emotions. You are acting as if you can see the guys face and he is not hidden under a mask then it takes away which is so utterly absurd. Your opinion is narrow minded just like Vaders world view.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
No, that is not proof he cannot defeat the emperor. You are asserting the translation to mean something entirely different when we later see him actually kill him on his own after he had enough and chose to act on Luke’s behalf.
The intent of the emotional aspect I agree with wholeheartedly but it is just evidence. We never ignore the facts. We look at how a guy is defeated and by whom. No exceptions can be made. These battles all take place within a story we cannot pick and choose what facts we accept which we ignore. If you do not accept the evidence in any way, shape, or form then you are whether wittingly or unwittingly reaching a biased conclusion.
False, since what started him on his path to the dark side was Luke’s failure. His goal is to after the events of Luke lording over him in the middle of the night to come back and annihilate the other students Luke was training. The idea of who Vader was becomes his compass. We all strive for ideals and this was his true north. He evolves both times he is betrayed by Luke and Snoke. We never see a character evolve so quickly in the history of Star Wars. He wants to let the Jedi and Sith all die. He evolved past it after he achieved killing his master he supplanted his leadership role. We see him next evolve to deal with Palpatine since he discovers he had an armada under his thrall. He plays Palpatine and wants him dead but realizes he has to play it correctly. Ren evolves in a few years at most whereas Vader was stuck in a rut for two decades as sycophant with no true path save slavery to Palpatine. You yourself earlier admitted it.
He already thought for himself when he attacked Luke due to him standing over his bed. You ignoring his actions here is just ignoring reality.
Kylo has a connection to her from the onset. He has inner conflict which many have so he is trying to deal with it while going forward. Like most apprentices to the dark side they have to start somewhere. This is the nature of the beast. You might think it is different because we see it happen on screen but it is in the same vein as most dark side master/apprentice relationships.
If you think killing your own father who is trying to help you is not evil or something a villain would do then you are so far removed from reality you cannot be reasoned with. He was the antagonist just as Vader was just not as evil as Palpatine.
So him trying to stop Finn and Rey from leaving in TFA somehow is not getting in the way of the heroes. What planet are you from? He just butchered his father and would not let them leave. Literally getting in the way of the heroes. He then tries to kill Luke and annihilate the rest of the resistance at the end of TLJ. You claim he is not a villain as Kylo Ren? You talk about intent but the story clearly establishes Kylo Ren as the series antagonist. His evil eclipses Vader’s when he killed his father.
Your opinion is just your own. Mind is different but Ren always evolved based on what was happening around him in every single film. No one evolved more.
Until Luke Skywalker destroyed him in Rotj. Kylo actually achieved supremacy unlike Vader. His potential never lost and he unlike Vader who was dominated at the end by Luke whereas Ren dominated Rey prior to his mother’s sacrifice.
Apr 4th, 2020 02:44 PM
