@Miko Hacksaw - I don't have time to respond to all of that and this is enough of a mess already. It'd be safe to say that my stance on the outcome of the fight itself is aligned with Temp's here.
The main thing regarding our personal discussion is that his hunger is dark side oriented. It's confirmed by the Onderonians to be an echo in the Force (not just casting echoes in the Force), and the Prima Guide confirms that he uses "only the dark side". I did mention this in a prior post that you didn't respond to, but I'll say it again: those quotes prove beyond doubt that his hunger is in no way independent of the Force. It isn't a separate or external source of power; it's a subset of the Force itself.
The fact that his hunger is sated or fueled by the Force doesn't establish it as separate from the Force altogether. Indeed, things that damage or drain the Force, or are powered by it, have historically included acts of the Force or Force powers themselves. From where I'm standing, his hunger is the "Force Drain" that I call it, but also doubles as his condition. How can the Force influence someone who's a Wound in the Force? The same way you proposed that Kreia and the Exile regained their connections to the Force upon meeting despite both being cut off from the Force and one being a Wound in the Force.
To reiterate, his hunger is a dark side condition/dark side Force power, not a separate source of power from the Force altogether. Your use of this quote:
Is taken completely out of context, I'm afraid. The KotORCG itself uses "the dark side" synonymously with "hunger" here, which only supports my point:
And that's hardly the only quote to do so:
The Prima Guide reiterates it as well. I think it's clear that "hunger" is really just a synonymous term for Nihilus' "dark side condition/power" (it's both). In reality, his hunger is really just the "Force Drain" that I and several others like to refer to; the thing is that it's not just a power but also doubles as a condition or disorder, if you will, and I'm sure you can understand why; the more he uses it, the more it takes over him. There's another quote that talks about how his hunger "drives him" to consume populations; that is yet more evidence in favour of my interpretation. And indeed, when you do the same thing as you kill the Jedi Masters in the DS storyline, Kreia explains that this power is of the dark side, not distinct from the Force in any way:
Nihilus has been thoroughly established as a dark sider, someone who wields dark side power, someone with a connection to the dark side, and someone corrupted by the dark side. That fills the criteria for him to fall under Palpatine's quotes (since we know him to be a Sith Lord). In that case, Palpatine is indeed more powerful, and Temp's case indeed continues to hold credence.
So the fact that she was still conscious means that her ability to summon the Force couldn't have been substantially diminished? I don't need similar examples from the mythos, the fact is that she was an old lady who had been violently lifted off her feat and thrown into a wall, it's entirely plausible that she would have suffered some brain damage and lacked the ability to summon the concentration required to effectively use the Force in that instance, nevermind how concentrated the Force energies around her were. And as said she wouldn't have necessarily been talking about her Force power.
But now I see that the KOTORCG does indeed say as much, but quite frankly I question whether the KOTORCG knows what the hell it's talking about at this point, but we can table that discussion until I've replayed the game.
...I was talking about how you had said that Odan-Urr's attempt to sever the Force from Exar Kun had set a precedent for how a Force Bond drain would work.
1. These quotes establish that the Exile casts echoes when she acts, and that the stronger your connection to life/the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made. This doesn't mean that everyone casts echoes when they act, or that the strength of these echoes is solely determined by how strong one's connection to the Force/life is.
2. I was talking about who was more dominant in influencing a Force Bond once it had been made. Traya mentions that the Exile instinctively knows how to manipulate such Bonds, implying that there is an element of natural proficiency involved.
These comments are both inaccurate and really unhelpful. The way we develop our collective understanding is by having an open dialogue. Silencing discussion gets us nowhere.
It was actually a coherent definition for Force power that I wanted, which I'm not entirely sure you have at the minute. I'm not saying that as an insult btw, I would wager that most people don't.
Any chance someone like Neph wants to explain how these quotes don't establish his position? I have no interest in getting into these kinds of debates anymore.
1. In-universe.
2. Not saying most powerful ever.
3. Stuff from magazines of questionable canonicity (aside from short stories).
4. Most sensible reading of this quote being that it's from Vader's perspective.
Last edited by GM_Nebaris on Mar 20th, 2017 at 02:21 PM
It's more that it has no functional canon role at all. It's a magazine for fans, it includes a range of stuff from interviews to concept art to behind the scenes stuff etc. It's not canon-conditional at all (except for as I said stuff like short stories which are valid sources).
For the record Temp I wouldn't say that I'm as opposed to Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever as I once was. It's clear that both Nihilus and he possess near godlike abilities (and my question regarding the Force Storm at the beginning of this thread went unanswered). But presenting quotes and simply claiming that they settle the matter without ever going beyond a surface level examination of them is not a particularly smart way of doing things and is something I'll always disagree with.
Pretty sure everything about Star Wars is "for the fans," from films to books to video games. It's the official and licensed Star Wars magazine. The fact that it is replete with out of universe information only strengthens those instances when facts are relayed - it's not from an in-universe fallible character. 👍
My point was that a magazine is generally not a storytelling medium, but something that celebrates the fandom and franchise beyond the stories that are released.
Do you have a source that states that comments made from within the confines of such things should be included as part of the Legends canon?
These aren't mutually exclusive. It's licensed and marketed as the official Star Wars magazine. Since its inception, Insider has and continues to include actual stories.
I'm more inclined to side with an officially licensed source designed to tell stories and inform fans about various aspects of Star Wars than your suggestion that we dismiss the information because it's "for fans."
I can confirm that it is untrue that I am definitely someone who excels at not being the same person as someone that is not known by any name other than "Neb".
Ok and these I acknowledge as being canon. The rest of the magazine however is a different matter.
Do you agree that aside from the short stories the magazine does not function as a storytelling medium?
BTW provided you respond SunRazer, it'll probably be difficult for me to get back to you for the rest of this week but I will get back to you at some point afterwards.
Is this Nebaris? Interesting. Thought you were someone else who had a history of commenting on things that he knew nothing about, so I'll retract those comments. My apologies.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
I'll try and use some less specific points to put this match up in perspective.
Firstly, everyone here obviously knows the established fact that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to have existed.
Now, let's have a quick look at Valkorion/Vitiate. This guy was over a thousand years old, and spent that time studying lore and ways to increase his powers. When he was backstabbed by Arcann he didn't even die, he just lost his host body. On Ziost he wiped out the entire planet, single-handedly draining it of the force and it's inhabitants.
All of this and even Valkorion wasn't as powerful as Sidious. Even with similar feats (yet more advanced) such as draining planets and existing without a physical form, Sidious remains the greatest Sith Lord in galactic history.
And even Valkorian couldn't possess the mind of the outlander, but there weren't many others who could resist him turning their body into a host. This guy could have multiple bodies. Couldn't he just force drain the outlander? No.
Using this same logic, Nihilus could not just drain Sidious, as Sidious had so much more knowledge, having read insane amounts of Jedi/Sith lore/holocrons.
Let's not forget that Sidious force drained Byss slowly to increase his own power, so he has knowledge of force drain.
This coupled with the 100% hands down fact that he is the greatest Sith Lord to have existed means that we can logically deduce that Sidious would be able to effectively counter anything Nihilus throws at him.
Hope this helps the debate
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Well, the telekinesis in of itself isn't exactly unprecedented; plenty of characters have been hurled into walls with enough force to jar lightsabers out of their hands. In no way does that indicate anything, really.
As for the brain damage, I'll assume you're joking. If not, provide proof. I'm not going off "plausibilities" (it's not plausible, by the way, given her ability to withstand devastating ship crashes without any real damage). Your case has literally no legs to stand on unless you have proof.
Where does she say she wasn't necessarily referring to Force power? "Stripped of power" and similar phrases are mentioned repeatedly in the game, and each time they refer to being stripped of Force power.
Ultimately, however, this comes down entirely to speculative alternatives on your part which are devoid of evidence, which can be contrasted to the fact that I have multiple quotes supporting my claims.
I said Sever Force sets a precedent for how the severing of one's Force connection should work, and as of yet, I haven't received evidence to the contrary.
The Exile's instinctive ability in manipulating bonds is definitely a factor, but Traya notes that the actual mirroring of intents is a result of the Exile casting echoes as a result of her actions. We know these echoes are stronger if you're stronger in the Force. She then refers to the stronger one as being the predator in the relationship.
Still not seeing any basis for Nihilus' Drain working on Sidious here.
The amount of Force-derived power that they can summon and control? I mean, I think a general definition in of itself should suffice, especially considering that several of Palpatine's supremacy quotes are directly prefaced with talk about the fury of the dark side and what not.
1. Which only means it's fallible, not that it's in error. Given the copious amount of quotes that reiterate the same point, I don't think the fallibility of any one quote in question would matter in the slightest.
2. Well, it could be.
3. On what grounds is its canonicity questionable? Cherry-picking what's canonical from it or not demands some sort of proof on your end. It's official and licensed, containing information from authors, producers, developers etc., and this here suggests that it was canon to the old EU: http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2...on-part-of.html
4. Not necessarily. And if so, as with point one, that proves its fallibility, not that its in error.
Mar 20th, 2017 09:12 AM
