KMC Forums - Ranking TOR characters

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Originally posted by Azronger
I re-checked the quote and it does indeed say that, I was mistaken.

No problem. Happens with me all the time. smile

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"Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

However, that essentially renders the quote worthless if you want to prove his superiority to Dooku, since technical proficiency can only get you so far. Raw skill is important, more important than technical knowledge, I'd say.

I said Malgus is on the same general level as Dooku not that he's flat out superior. Also, the capacity to build a flawless (ie perfect) form is naturally connected with innate skill. A flawless form can't be exploited either.

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Now, I do not know the context of that statement, but from what I understand, it was made after the HoT's battle with Malgus. And as it suggests, despite his technical perfection, he was still struck down by the HoT in lightsaber combat.

He was "struck down" by a combinee formed by the HoT (the same who tanked Vitiate's TK on a DS nexus), the Barsen'thor, his peer, and two of the most versatile and dangerous non force sensitives in the galaxy. AotC shows that, under certain circuntances, prepared non force sensitives can give trouble even to the most talented force user. So, a very significant handicap.

Note that in the original flashpoint, when Malgus HP reached 20%, he becomes invincible and you had to syncronize ability spam on him to throw him off the plataform. The process, however, due to the game engine, wasn't as smooth as one would like, so their changed it to a "normal" way of defeating him.

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Probably the fact that the HoT defeated Malgus in a lightsaber duel... At least assuming my interpretation of the above quote is correct. Anyway, the hierarchy is clear: Dooku > HoT > Malgus as duelists.

He "defeated" with the help of three people. Your inequality doesn't follow.

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Um, no, I didn't ignore what you said. A "battle" can refer to a clash of armies as well as a duel between two adversaries. By "battlefield feats", Sidious may refer to the former or the latter, or both, but the thing here is that we don't know what he's referring to (I have my evidence it isn't referring to personal combat, though), so you can stop acting like personal combat is included in the quote.

Jeeeesus. He's praising Malgus performance as a warrior, not as a general. His battlefield feats are naturally connected to the previous sentence. Concordance, please.

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And no, fighting multiple weak opponents isn't the same as fighting a single powerful one, nor is there any metric to quantify quantity in correlation to quality. The notion that the quote somehow proves Malgus > Dooku is nothing but hot air.

Can Ventress defeat Dooku? No. Can Ventress defeat Agen Kolar, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto and Saeese Tin at the same time? No. These four Jedi can, collectively, accomplish what a more formidable force user can do alone. Your logic is debunked again.

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Um, no, Sidious' assessment of Vader's "unmatched" skills occurred during RotS. And since Malgus was before Vader's time, Sidious would obviously have included him in the quote as well. So it begs the question: Why would Sidious state Malgus' personal conbat feats have never been duplicated, if in his opinion, no Sith has Vader's skills?

Anakin is the Chosen One, his raw skills, regarding anything related to the Force are greater than any non haxed Force user ever. General combative ability, on the other hand, depends on a myriad of factors such as experience and mentality as well. Note that when Sidious compiled the Book of Sith, three years after, RotS, Vader was still alive and capable to build his own legacy so he was most likely excluded from the quote. Fact supported by his reminiscenses of Anakin as "the greates Jedi killer of all time" in Dark Empire.

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The answer would be that his quote about battlefield feats isn't referring to personal combat at all, but rather large scale engagements.

It refers to Malgus as a "warrior", not as a commander or general. Other points adressed above.

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Show me the calcs. Also, Anakin didn't just change the angular momentum; he also moved it fast enough to intercept incoming missiles.

I'll post in my calc thread.

I have a problem with your scaling, though: Not that I saw from Ventress suggests she is above OCW Padawakin. His weakest iteration tanked her force pushes/blasts and blasted her through walls. I believe no one here will claim that Ventress grew more than Anakin.

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I didn't say she ragdolled Anakin. Anyway, it's noted how Anakin required saving in that situation:

Ventress, Ahsoka and Anakin square off after being dropped into a deep pit. When Anakin drops his lightsaber, he's only saved by the intervention of his Padawan.

-The Clone Wars Visual Guide

He required saving because he lost his lightsaber. Anakin isn't incapacitated, he's perfectly conscious and aware of the situation.

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I acknowledged that. However, the fact that it is suggested as possibility implies great parity between Ventress and the rest of the acolytes.

We both know she's stronger than them. This only becomes debatable when you start to use Game Boy level animation as a supposed proof of something.

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I've seen this "bout of rage" argument been brought up way too many times as a means to undermine Ventress' feat. There's no way to say how much this supposed "rage amp" boosted her abilitiess. The fact is she tore through their Force barriers and lifted them off their feet in a clear display of domination, only being interrupted by the shaking ship.

Clear display of domination that lasted 3 seconds and she was in worse shape than the duo after it. laughing

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Yeah, show me the calcs and we'll see. Even if you can prove Malgus' feat is better, I am hardly out of ammo even then. I can still slot in Kenobi and Maul into the scaling, but I'll wait for your response.

Will be on my thread.

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I'm more interested in Malgus vs Dooku currently than Vaylin or Arcann, so I'll leave this to another time.

Ok.

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I misremembered a quote; that's it. And I questioned your character rankings because I was curious about your reasoning and wanted to stir some debate.

No hard feelings, dude. smile