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Quantifying Banite scaling
Started by: Azronger

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Azronger
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Quantifying Banite scaling


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 09:35 PM
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Unbowed
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The "mathematical method" made me chuckle, especially when I realized it comes from the same brilliant mind behind the "dark side accumulator" thread. laughing out loud

Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 09:41 PM
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The Ellimist
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Why are you assuming that the apprentice's growth rate remains constant throughout time?


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 09:52 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why are you assuming that the apprentice's growth rate remains constant throughout time?


I mean, the Banites continued to gather and study knowledge and I can't recall any instances where a Force user hasn't stopped growing as they trained.


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 10:04 PM
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The Ellimist
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
I mean, the Banites continued to gather and study knowledge and I can't recall any instances where a Force user hasn't stopped growing as they trained.


Sure but growth usually levels out at some point and people hit diminishing returns; if we drew straight lines we'd get rather ridiculous results.


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 10:06 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure but growth usually levels out at some point and people hit diminishing returns;


Based on? Didn't happen with Dooku or Sheev after they hit their sixties.

quote:
if we drew straight lines we'd get rather ridiculous results.


Why are they ridiculous? smile


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 10:09 PM
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The Ellimist
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I mean we observe through pretty much every form of development that people make big gains but hit diminishing returns where it takes more effort to make equivalent gains (with some caveats - usually you hit multiple plateaus but as a general rule there are diminishing returns over the long term). There's little reason to think this doesn't apply to Star Wars as well.

And it does happen to Dooku and Sidious, though perhaps less so than one would expect due to both their enormous potential and getting some extra boosts in old age (Dooku by apprenticing himself to Sidious, and Sidious via Byss + his Force studies + his clones). It seems unlikely that Sidious from age 20 to 50 did not grow more than Sidious from age 50 to 80.


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 10:16 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean we observe through pretty much every form of development that people make big gains but hit diminishing returns where it takes more effort to make equivalent gains (with some caveats - usually you hit multiple plateaus but as a general rule there are diminishing returns over the long term). There's little reason to think this doesn't apply to Star Wars as well.

And it does happen to Dooku and Sidious, though perhaps less so than one would expect due to both their enormous potential and getting some extra boosts in old age (Dooku by apprenticing himself to Sidious, and Sidious via Byss + his Force studies + his clones). It seems unlikely that Sidious from age 20 to 50 did not grow more than Sidious from age 50 to 80.


Elm is of course right. Ashoka grows faster then obi wan.

Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 11:18 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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And, yet, when Palpatine had problems with his clone body in Dark Empire, he went to Korriban Sith Lords to ask for their help. It's safe to state that it isn't 100% the apprentice will grow more knowledgeable than the Master.


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Old Post Feb 2nd, 2018 11:32 PM
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AncientPower
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I like how Bane isn't surpassed by Zannah, how Cognus is highly unlilely to have surpassed Zannah, how Millennial gave Cognus the finger with it implied he'd also failed to surpass her. How Gean and Gravid were strongly implied to be the opposite of successful in that regard, and also massively damaging the knowledge and teachings of the entire Order, and all of that before we ever actually see Tenebrous quantify the generational power growth in any meaningful ways.

But no, the power gap must obviously have been by entire orders of magnitude, because RoT.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 01:48 AM
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NewGuy01
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>Bane isn't surpassed by Zannah
She managed to defeat him in her early 30's (younger than Bane was in PoD), and became more powerful immediately thereafter upon inheriting the mantle of DLOTS. On what basis did Zannah fail to surpass Bane when it's canonically stated that she did?

>Cognus is highly unlikely to have surpassed Zannah.
Bullshit. laughing out loud

I assume Millennial didn't surpass Cognus
That's baseless, too, but Millennial defected, so he's not even part of the lineage.

B-but Gean and Gravid!
Gravid still surpassed and defeated his master, and Gean still surpassed and defeated him. Luceno even stated that the only purpose of that backstory was to separate the modern Sith (i.e Plagueis and Tenebrous) from the older, more 'magical' teachings of the ancients.


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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 02:25 AM

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 02:21 AM
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AncientPower
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She was getting utterly overpowered in their fight to the point that her situational awareness was zero, and her mental attack didn't work because his will was too strong. She's forced to revert to a massive amp to defeat him in actual combat. She definitely hadn't surpassed him then and her POV throughout DoE implies that she couldn't rely on further power growth to overthrow him despite him having clearly reached his prime.

There's a big deal made about her ability to suppress the Force in others and that her apprenticeship was focused on mastering this power. That implies that she got by on this ability instead of, y'know, actually overthrowing Zannah. In DoE, I got the distinct impression that she'd already gained a considerable degree of her potential and that both Bane and Zannah were massively above her paygrade.

Cognus is enraged by him leaving, he never tries to take her down and seemingly can't when he decides Kaan was actually better. By this point she has to train another apprentice.

Gean surpassed him, which is why she was literally eviscerated in her heroic attempt to prevent what he'd done. The knowledge they lost was stated to have taken a massive toll on the order, they canonically lost numerous techniques, Essence Transfer being among them. They also lost their knowledge on Sith magic. Yet for all the scientific advancements of Tenebrous and Plagueis, Sidious still considered sorcery to be the true source of dark side power upon him regaining all of that knowledge.

Not that any of that is really all that important. What is, is that there's no reason to conclude a massive power gap across the Banite line. Especially not when the quotes used are both vague and are stated in general without context. A generational power growth occurred, yes. Was it massive? Until we get to Tenebrous we've got no reason to believe so.

DoE Bane is arguably on Tenebrous' tier.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 02:39 AM
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LordOfTheLight
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NewGuy, why are you getting into an argument with it?

Just put the lol emoticon and move on.

Last edited by LordOfTheLight on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 02:48 AM

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 02:46 AM
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AncientPower
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The typical non-response of the PT wankers.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 03:30 AM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
She was getting utterly overpowered in their fight.


Sure, she had a hard time, because Zannah is physically weaker and less proficient in close quarters combat than Bane; sorcerer-types generally struggle against juggernaut-types of the same class in one-on-one battles. Although, that being said, considering that Zannah won that fight, I wouldn't really call your "utterly overpowered" description accurate in the first place.

quote:
and her mental attack didn't work because his will was too strong.


Not as strong as hers, as it turned out.

quote:
She's forced to revert to a massive amp to defeat him in actual combat.


Funny how when Zannah summons tendrils on Ambria it's a "massive amp," but when Kun does it with help on the infinitely stronger nexus of Yavin IV, it's an accurate demonstration of his power.

quote:
She definitely hadn't surpassed him then and her POV throughout DoE implies that she couldn't rely on further power growth to overthrow him despite him having clearly reached his prime.


Citation needed.

quote:
There's a big deal made about her ability to suppress the Force in others and that her apprenticeship was focused on mastering this power.


Citation needed.

quote:
That implies that she got by on this ability instead of, y'know, actually overthrowing Zannah.


Even if this was true, it stands to reason that whoever her apprentice was would also have to deal with this ability when they overthrew her. The fact that they prevailed regardless, when Zannah didn't, means that the lineage still became stronger.

quote:
In DoE, I got the distinct impression that she'd already gained a considerable degree of her potential and that both Bane and Zannah were massively above her paygrade.


Yeah, that impression of yours is stupid and wrong. Bane intended to take the Huntress as his apprentice because he felt Zannah would be incapable of killing him; ergo, he thought she had the potential to surpass both Zannah and himself. Besides, on what basis do you believe that the Huntress--who had no formal force training--had already reached a "considerable degree" of her potential ability as a force user?

quote:
Cognus is enraged by him leaving, he never tries to take her down and seemingly can't when he decides Kaan was actually better. By this point she has to train another apprentice.


Since he fundamentally disagreed with the principles of the Rule of Two, Millennial would've had no reason to challenge Cognus for her position. And once again, what the hell does Cognus's half-trained dropout apprentice have to do with Tenebrous, who was a genuine master in the Order of the Sith Lords?

quote:
Gean surpassed him, which is why she was literally eviscerated.


Gean surpassed him, which is why Gravid was literally dead.

quote:
The knowledge they lost was stated to have taken a massive toll on the order, they canonically lost numerous techniques, Essence Transfer being among them. They also lost their knowledge on Sith magic.


Sure, but you're missing the big picture. We're using Bane and Tenebrous as reference points, yeah? Bane spent a grand total of twenty years acquiring Sith knowledge. Even if we grossly exaggerated Gravid's impact and said that he erased all of the Order's knowledge other than what Gean personally knew, Tenebrous would still have hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge to work with from after that conflict. Unless you mean to say that Bane is somehow dozens of times more productive in searching for knowledge than his stronger and more affluent successors, Tenebrous still leaves him in the dust.

quote:
Yet for all the scientific advancements of Tenebrous and Plagueis, Sidious still considered sorcery to be the true source of dark side power upon him regaining all of that knowledge.


You realize that Plagueis could use sorcery, and that Bane couldn't, right? messed

quote:
Not that any of that is really all that important. What is, is that there's no reason to conclude a massive power gap across the Banite line. Especially not when the quotes used are both vague and are stated in general without context. A generational power growth occurred, yes. Was it massive? Until we get to Tenebrous we've got no reason to believe so.


Uh, the fact that there were thirty successive generations of Sith, with each stronger than the last, is a pretty damn good reason to believe that there was a massive gap between Bane and Sidious, yeah.

quote:
DoE Bane is arguably on Tenebrous' tier.


Sounds like a shitty argument.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 05:30 AM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
DoE Bane is arguably on Tenebrous' tier.
........


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 05:45 AM
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Greysentinel365
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
........


Best to just ignore it if you plan on avoiding an aneurysm

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 05:51 AM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
........

It's like there was no point, in even creating the RoT, let alone waiting/preparing for millennium.
By AP's logic.

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 06:55 AM
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Azronger
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Put that... thing on ignore NewGuy. Please.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 07:09 AM
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Azronger
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I removed the portion discussing the mathematical method, as the controversy spawned by it overshadowed the rest of the content in the blog. Perhaps that might be more solid and to your liking?


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 04:04 PM
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