Well, though just the original trilogy novelizations are canon, Sidious is indeed more powerful than both Yoda and Windu as we see from TCW, the prequels, and authorial intent. Also, Sidious' feats are greater than Yoda's.
Just because he wasn't trying to kill him doesn't mean he wasn't trying to win, subdue him, or hurt him. My main argument was, Vader wouldn't have let himself get hit, regardless of whether he was trying to kill Luke. And Luke grew a LOT since Empire. His power in the force is clearly superior, he's built his own lightsaber, and he's had more time with Ben and Yoda, and himself to meditate and practice.
Well, I'm not going to find too many examples of Luke going around massacring people because he was, you know, a good guy. But as far as telekinesis goes, the star destroyer shaking thing, and let me remind you this is 1. massively pre-prime Luke, and 2. an object hundreds of thousands of times bigger and heavier than any Vader's lifted or shook.
See again, this is where our separate interpretations come in. I've already told you what I believe and why I believe it. Yet you stick to yours, which btw, I find ridiculous. But I guess you find mine to be reachy, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because if we're just going to be going back and forth on this topic, I don't see the point of it.
And if you think I'm trying to make Rey and Kylo seem more powerful than they are, then I'm not. I don't have any reason to. Snoke's feat with Rey isn't one of his stronger showings and doesn't prove his superiority to Sidious or Luke. However, I do believe that Kylo and Rey are as powerful as standard Jedi Knights.
Not all jedi turn to force ghosts after they die. They have to become close to the living force, the way Qui-Gon did when he died. His body didn't disappear, yet he still became a force ghost, because he was actually killed. Obi Wan and Yoda disappeared, because they ended their lives before something else would end it for them, as they knew how to; qui gon told them. You think what I'm saying is BS, but only because you don't accept that alternate interpretations of the same scenes can exist. I mean, if we're going by the "This is B.S.!" game, then I could have just as easily said "Luke losing to Rey fair and square as you suggest he did is B.S.!" and expected you to be like "Oh Sh*t, you're right!"
I don't feel like listing all of Snoke's accolades that I've mentioned so far again, but let's do it just so we can have a nice list.
Defenite feats:
1. Creating a force bond which he could switch on and off, and which allowed presences and matter to be teleported.
2. Dominating Rey and Kylo
3. Knowing psionic powers which the Jedi and Sith didn't have access to.
4. Knowing what happened in the throne room when the Death Star II exploded as if he was there, or in the heads of those there.
5. Filling Kylo's heads with thoughts which were darker than anything Luke had seen (And he'd seen into Vader)
Maybe feats:
1. Contacting Palpatine and the Acolytes of the Beyond from the unknown regions in a way that Vader couldn't understand and Palpatine couldn't explain
2. Making Yupe Tashu go insane
3. Destroying legions of enemies potentially with the force, and fighting horrors which made the empire look good.
4. Confused Luke and created an illusion to cloud his true desires and intents
5. Knew of, and used, the very source of the dark side, if not the force itself.
And who ever said Sidious was more powerful? He's more powerful than Yoda, sure, but as I said, with Luke and Snoke with their feats in the picture, you can't claim he's the top dog with certainty anymore.
Yes, but the unknown regions contained the source of the force, the dark side, and power itself, so him having that knowledge is big.
He collapsed a hut casually , and remember, this was long before his training was complete. Yes, it's not on the level of Palpatine and Vader, but then those two are much more powerful than standard jedi knights, now aren't they? He kept growing from that time. After having recieved the kind of training he's recieved, it's safe to assume that he's as powerful as a standard jedi knight from the Prequel era.
Rey didn't do anything a jedi knight couldn't do? How about lifting those boulders? And regardless, the reason I place her where I do is because of powerscaling. Kylo and her are said to have the greatest potential of all the characters we've seen so far. Most of it is untapped, but Kylo did learn quite a bit, and they're tied with some sort of a bond, so that when one grows, so does the other. This means they'll always be equals. So, with her having tapped into as much of her potential as Kylo has, she is pretty much as powerful as a jedi knight.
They haven't had the opportunity to show off their skills against other force users (well, Kylo did kill the entire jedi academy, but...) but as I said, I place them where I do because of powerscaling.
Luke is either the second or first most powerful character in the current canon (from my point of view) and so losing to him isn't a sign of weakness.
That's not what I'm saying. For god's sake, I can't keep rewording my argument again and again when I know you'll just misinterpret what I'm saying each time. I'm honestly done trying to explain this to you. Let me find a different reason as to why Darth Vader wouldn't just be able to force choke all the guards. He didn't force choke all the imperial guards that he fought, right? Cause they were attacking him too quickly. Same thing with the Preatorians. They'll attack him so quickly, he'll need to use his saber, and wouldn't be able to force choke all of them. Make sense?
Maybe the power level of the people you're connecting effects the ability. But it was never stated nor implied that it was. I mean, the bond already exists, he's just using it. So I would think that the power level of the subjects wouldn't matter, but I guess we just don't know.
But a Jedi tries to take the peaceful route whenever possible. They didn't like the idea of the clone wars, they didn't want this to happen, in fact, the jedi were against the creation of the grand army of the republic. And as Yoda said, a jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. The jedi, especially someone like Luke, who refused to kill Vader, and saw the good in everything would never allow things to get serious when they don't need to.
Or maybe, and hear me out on this, I know it sounds crazy, just maybe I have a different interpretation of things than you? Is that within the realm of possibility?
Great then we agree...then why bring up the novels
So? That’s it? Then you admit Vader wasn’t trying to beat him, thank you.
He lost to two newbs end of story, Sidious or Yoda would have clowned those two. Uhh no...they’re hardly trained, force potential doesn’t automatically make you all powerful.
None of this is superior to Sidious, how about clouded the entire jedis ability to see the future, created a force bond with Yoda, killed three Jedi masters in the blink of an eye, stalemated Yoda and ran him off. Hid his force powers from the Jedi council even while in the same room, force choked dooku light years away. Etc etc etc
But again it doesn’t make him more powerful
But we were comparing them to fully trained Sith Lords and Jedi knights n masters, pretty sure dooku n Ventress would clown these two
I haven’t seen anything from them that is that impressive, Luke losing at his supposed level is pretty weak. The entire academy wasn’t killed lol
Then drop it idiot, but Vader did force push several guards you hit wit, n dooku did fight two Jedi at once, it’s because they’re mental stability is better then Kylo or Rey.
It would make sense though wouldn’t it dummy?
That’s still not a pacifist, I suggest you look up what pacifist means
Well, I believe all those things to be true, and for reasons. You may not think those reasons are good, but they exist, and thus aren't speculation.
I'm going to try and orgazine my thoughts now.
Here's what my line of thought is:
Yoda's more powerful than the rest of the jedi
I don't believe you disagree with this
Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda
I don't think you disagree with this either
Palpatine is equal to mother Talzin in power
I don't know whether or not you believe this, but we see him in a lightning duel with her, and niether wins until Dooku interferes.
Luke and Snoke are more powerful than Palpatine
Here's where the disagreement comes in
My arguments are
1. Snoke's and Luke's force bond feats are superior to anything Palpatine or anyone below Palpatine has done.
2. Snoke potentially mindraped Sidious
3. Snoke was from the source of the dark side, which Palpatine was a conduit to lost knowledge that Palpatine wanted
4. Luke was already as powerful as Vader in RotJ from which point he grew in power and knowledge. He also had knowledge from the unknown regions as he wanted to explore the force separately from the Jedi
Your arguments are
1. Luke lost to Rey and Kylo
2. He died from his force illusion feat, which was weak
3. Nothing implies that Snoke's feat is more powerful than many of Palpatine's
Your counterargument for the first claim is that that feat was weak, and that it was unquantifyable.
I source powerscaling, by saying that Snoke and Luke are shown to be very powerful, and these feats being their most powerful would make the feat impressive. Also, Sidious needed a ritual to create the force bond, whereas Snoke and Luke did it on will.
Luke also utilized one on hundreds of people, and Snoke made the illusion more powerful than Sidious or arguably Luke's.
Your counterargument for the second claim is that we don't know it was Snoke.
I ask you what else it could have been. If Snoke comes from the unknown regions, and has knowledge of the first civilizations there, and the unknown regions are the source of the dark side/the force, and Snoke knew what happened on the second Death Star, then Snoke probably was keeping tabs with Palpatine.
Your counterargument to the third point is that he may have just had a few nuggets of knowledge which Palpatine didn't have, and we know Palpatine knew a LOT about the force, so there's no reason to think Snoke knew nearly as much.
That, except he comes from the place where the force was created, had many masters who he said taught him in the ways of the force, and we've seen him be the most powerful force user of his era. He also had the ring made from the obsidian of Mustafar from under Darth Vader's castle, suggesting that he did go around collecting knowledge. And knowledge doesn't automatically mean more raw power. Snoke's raw power can still be greater than Palpatine's, especially since his powers are closer to the source of the dark side than Palpatine's.
Your counterargument to the fourth point is that Luke was never more powerful than Vader, since his feats don't reflect that, and him defeating vader doesn't count since Vader wasn't trying to kill him.
I argue that his star-destroyer feat does reflect that, and that him being able to penetrate Vader's defenses also prove that he's a superior fighter. That along with the canonized novelization of Return of the Jedi.
My counterargument to your first argument is
He didn't want things to get serious with Rey and he was emotionally compromised with Kylo, as well as being caught by surprise.
You don't buy it. I don't know why, but you don't seem to think that was the case, even though it seems obvious to me, and I don't have any definitive proof, so this argument hasn't really been going anywhere.
My counterargument to you second point is
The force illusion feat, which was done in hundreds of minds as opposed to two, and over lightyears, and for ten entire minutes, was the most powerful display of Force power in the new canon, so dying from it does not show weakness.
Besides, Luke didn't die from it, he gave himself to the force. We know this from the fact that he disappeared, which a jedi chooses to do. We know Qui Gon didn't disappear, and he became a force ghost.
You say an illusion is not powerful, but you don't know that. The movie treats it as powerful, and it's psionics on a massive scale. Which makes it impressive.
You also say that Luke died from the feat, and no where does it say that he gave himself to the force. Obi-Wan and Yoda disappeared after they were killed by something else, and didn't give themselves to the force. I don't agree. They disappeared, because they chose to willingly turn into force ghosts before sickness/old age/Vader's lightsaber could kill them.
My counterargument to your third point is
Snoke could create the connection and sever it on will from half the galaxy away. Sidious needed a ritual to do it from a planet into orbit. And Snoke managed to transport matter, which is something Kylo seemed surprised by, possibly suggesting he didn't know such a thing was possible. Connecting a force bond is no easy feat, and Snoke did it from lightyears away, and trasported Kylo and rainwater (and maybe Rey) whilst doing so.
You say that it'd be harder to create a bond between Yoda and Dooku than it would be to create one between Rey and Kylo, but I don't see any reason to believe that. It's not like they were resisting. In fact, Yoda wanted to use the vision to find out about/capture Sidious.
I think you missed my other comment. I had to split it into two since I wanted to completely flesh everything out this time.
I brought up the novels to prove Luke's Djem So was better than Vader's.
It's almost as if you skim through my arguments and don't understand them. I never claimed Vader was trying to beat him. Whether or not he was is irrelevant. Luke's still his equal, as he got hits in.
He Rey win, and the one with Kylo wasn't even a real fight, so it doesn't count. And Kylo is indeed very well trained, and Rey, for plot reasons, is just as effective with the force as he is, so yeah, they're trained enough.
Why is that superior to creating a force bond so strong it teleports matter and people from lightyears away? It really doesn't seem like it to me.
You keep saying you're "pretty sure" but you usually don't provide the reason why. When you do, and I retort, you go back to general statements without using proof to debunk my arguments.
You and I seem to have differing opinion on what makes a feat strong. Because to me, the boulder lifting and hut crushing feats are superior to anything we've seen Dooku or Ventress do, telekinectic-wise.
Luke didn't lose
The entire academy WAS killed: https://youtu.be/e7FRBxU75oA?t=7s
But neither instantly won the fight by killing them all in a second with the force, as you suggest Vader would with the Praetorians. And I agree, Vader could take them all, but he's more powerful than your standard jedi knight, which is who I said Rey and Kylo were equal in power to.
No. It's not like they're resisting.
regardless, Luke would've just given up and told Rey what happened. Maybe "pacifist" isn't the word, but it's within Luke's character to choose that path rather than violence.
I’m done with this comment, you must be autistic as you keep changing everything you say.
But again...Vader wasn’t trying to win, if he had wanted to win I’m pretty sure he’d just have used the force to own Luke
Of course it counts, it’s not like the rules had fights lol. No he didn’t, maybe one newb but not two. Trained sure but not to the level of a full in Jedi or Sith Lord
So how is a force bond stronger then force choking someone light years away?
Pretty sure means damn sure lol...Vader or dooku would have stomped those guards
Probably cause you’re an idiot
But that’s my point you moron Vader or dooku are way more powerful while Kylo n Rey are novices and that’s why they struggled
Did I change any arguments? I'll admit my view of Luke and Snoke evolved a little since we started this debate, but just to clarify, when we started, it was:
1. Snoke (most knowledge, comparable raw power to Sheev)
2. Luke (most raw power)
3. Sidious (combatively most powerful/more raw power than Snoke)
4. Yoda
Rey and Kylo are average jedi knights.
Now, it's:
1. Snoke (Most raw power/comparable combatively/most-ish knowledge)
2. Luke (Comparable raw power/comparable knowledge)
3. Sidious and Mother Talzin (Comparable raw power/most-ish knowledge/most combat effective)
4. Yoda
Kylo and Rey are jedi knights with the highest potential ever
Vader was trying to subdue Luke. If he could have used the force to pin him, or suspend his motion, or ragdoll him, he would have. And he certainly wouldn't have let himself get kicked down a flight of stairs. And later, when Luke was about to kill him, he would have defended himself.
Someone with as much potential as Kylo doesn't need as much training as a jedi knight to be as powerful as one. And regardless, it doesn't count because Luke was cheapshotted in a moment of weakness.
Because 1. Sidious required a ritual to create it, and 2. force choke is basic telekinesis, something you learn early on, the dark illusion (which is the actual name of what Sidious and Snoke did with the pre-existing force bond) is rare, and its application is more useful and versatile, and presumably more complicated.
You're replying to the wrong part of that sentence. Can you debunk my rebuttal to that claim?
Or, and I know it's crazy, but I'm a different person with a different interpretation of things?
There's a big difference between "they're not as powerful as vader." and "They're novices". I'm pretty sure Vader would have struggled, though not as much as they did.
Not "wouldn't" resist, "didn't" resist. Yoda wanted to find out more about/capture Sidious, so he didn't do anything about the fact that he was getting that vision.
I'm not changing my argument. I just stopped using the word "pacifist" because you didn't agree with its use. The idea is still the same. Luke would rather avoid confrontation than avoid telling Rey the answer.
Jun 19th, 2018 04:31 PM
