I think we're on the same page for the most part, then. So, going off of the two points you brought up, the pertinent questions are, "can Frodo Celeste use the ring talisman as well as Muur" and "does the ring talisman have all of Sauron's Muur's power?"
Exactly how much power was vested in the talisman is for all intents and purposes unknowable, so I won't comment on it. I don't find it to be particularly relevant to the question of who is stronger between Celeste-Muur and Muur, besides (as both were in possession of the talisman). With regards to whether or not Celeste could make full use of the talisman's power, you're right to say that we can't really know that for sure either, since the talisman has never been in anyone else's possession on-screen for any significant amount of time. What we do know, however, is that (spirit) Muur cannot use the force by himself; he requires a living, force-sensitive host to do so. Furthermore, it stands to reason that the breadth of his powers will increase as his host becomes more powerful, which is one reason why he seeks superior partners like Krayt and Vader.
So, with that in mind, which do you think was the better vessel for the talisman's power? A, the body of Muur, the man himself, and one of the most prominent Sith Lords of his day? Or B, the body of Celeste, who was just one of the dozens of Jedi agents working under Lucien Draay, and who actively resisted the talisman's influence? I, myself, have my doubts about option B. That's not to say that it's impossible; on the contrary, it's fairly widely believed that Exar Kun was stronger when channeling his powers through Kyp than he was in life, but that's because Kyp himself was exceptionally powerful. I haven't seen anything that makes me think the same is true of Celeste.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Nov 1st, 2018 at 11:29 PM
Nothing you said addresses what was discussed on page 4 and 5, Newguy.
The power of Muur's essence would be approximate to how powerful he was in his body in ancient times (the spirit is forged in the original vessel).
Muurne is Muur's Essence + Morne's Essence in her body. Clearly, then, their spirits combined would be channelling more power than just one essence alone through that body. We know from the evidence posted prior that if too much power is channelled through a weak host, the host body will be injured. Morne never had this problem.
Therefore meaning that she can handle both her own power and Muur's with some to spare before she suffers any physical side effects; that isn't her upper limit.
Your point may have been valid if we were just comparing Muur vs Morne... but we're not. We're comparing Muur by himself vs Muur combining his power with a new host. It seems fairly obvious the latter is more powerful than the former.
As for your points about Muur's reputation being superior to Morne's and him looking for more powerful hosts... the former isn't really compelling to begin with, the latter is owed more to the fact that Muur was always seeking someone both powerful and susceptible to temptation (Cade, Krayt) rather than someone resistant to his influence (Morne), and both are irrelevant to the comparison being made anyway.
Also? We're not exactly talking about Morne when she's outright resisting Muur's power... we're talking about her when she fully accepted it, at the end of Vector. And it's not that the breadth of "his powers" become more powerful... it just means that he is attached to a more powerful host. A more powerful host can get more done in the long run.
Morne, clearly, is a "suitable vessel" who can channel his full power, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Her latent potential could have been far higher than her initial reputation let on.
Last edited by BestDebaterEver on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 12:01 AM
Like previously mentioned, Morne did give a little scuffle to Vader by herself before Vader stomped her. She was obviously a capable Jedi on her own.
Also Newguy seems to be under the impression that the talisman on its own was an additional amp for Muur, when the only uses for it in life were to pick up the user if he dropped, make Rakghouls, and help create and control leviathans (as we saw Dreypa do). It was not stated to be an amp for Muur. Only when Muur was in it did it become so.
So it's not a comparison of Muur with the amulet vs a force user with the amulet. It's not a simple host vs host with the amulet. It's a comparison of Muur's power while living to a force user empowered by Muur's entire essence in an amulet. It's quite a difference than what Newguy is saying.
Also a very highly important post.
"More important than a user being controlled and empowered by an above Vader/Krayt being is the Rakghoul Plague."
That makes sense. I wasn't addressing anyone but Ellimist. A lot of the arguments being passed around in this thread seem to be based on certain assumptions that I wasn't interested in entangling with. But this one time I'll bite, just for you, if only to clarify what I'm getting at.
I'm curious as to what you're basing this on, because that's about as far as you can get from what is typically true for Sith Spirits. To begin with, the basis for any individual's strength in the force is their biology; it's precisely because disembodied spirits lack midichlorians (and therefore a direct connection to the living force) that they always require some external source of force energy to survive and act.
For example, Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos both bound themselves to the latent dark side energies in their temples and shrines to maintain their will, and they channeled those energies through Kyp and Tavion respectively to perform feats of magic. The spirits themselves don't have inherent power; it's because that's their nature that cases like Sidious, who could persist for months independent of an anchor, are so abnormal and impressive. I propose that Karness Muur's case is most consistent with Exar's and Marka's; he bound himself to the latent dark side energies of his amulet to maintain his will, and he channels those energies through the amulet's bearer in order to perform feats of magic.
In other words, our disagreement here is on the fundamentals, which is why I didn't bother addressing it earlier. Your argument is predicated on the theory that the Muur Talisman is fueled by the power of Karness Muur's spirit, whereas my argument is predicated on the theory that Karness Muur's spirit is fueled by the power of the Muur Talisman. Under my line of reasoning--supposing that I haven't gotten it wrong somewhere--the power of the Muur Talisman itself would not have changed between when Muur used it and when Celeste used it, making a comparison between Muur and Celeste-Muur a direct comparison between Celeste's and Muur's respective Force sensitivities. As for whatever you were saying about channeling twin spirits or something, I have no answer to that; it isn't compatible with my conception of how the Force works whatsoever.
As for this, I do believe I made a point of mentioning that Celeste's latent potential being greater than Muur's wasn't impossible. That being said, there's a difference between a claim being plausible and a claim being convincing. In any case, I'm not trying to say that Muur's strength in the Force is much greater than Celeste's on the basis of their respective reputations, but rather that I find the reverse to be unlikely.
A Sith spirit needs access to a living host to manifest its powers. It cannot even retain its presence without a suitable anchor (i.e. structure OR artifact - strong in the Dark Side) due to its unnatural form and pull of the void. Muur Talisman was the anchor for Karness Muur's spirit.
Muur Talisman make it possible for Muur's spirit to possess a host and use the host's body to manifest his powers afterwards. Celeste Morne, being a well-trained Jedi, is able to hold Muur's spirit at bay with her willpower but she allowed Muur to manifest his powers through her body in her fight with Darth Krayt. Not sure if this was the case of augmentation or temporary possession. I am assuming the latter but I am willing to see arguments to the contrary.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 12:10 PM
Sith Spirits are less effective in combat by themselves because they have no physical medium to use to interact with the world. That's all. But the power is in the spirit: case in point, Palpatine's clone bodies can handle his full power fairly well, but if he tries to use his full power through a weaker host like Jeng Droga or Brand, their bodies will be overwhelmed by his power in short order.
It was precisely because Sidious' spirit was so powerful that he 1. had caused his original and clone bodies to be consumed by his use of the dark side despite having many different forms of healing at his disposal (granted the clone bodies had genetic defects), and 2. he was able to persist in the vacuum of space for a year* and was stated to be capable of resisting the pull of the void "forever" - Sidious had become such a powerful nexus in of himself he had become an anchor. He was "no longer defined by his physical form" - his physical form had become an inadequate vessel for someone "more energy than flesh".
That's... evidently not true. Every Force user's "power" resides in the spirit. Their bodies are just vessels through which they express that power. This is reiterated and supported by every source that deals with spirits. The only sources I know of that talk about spirits being "powerless" are those pointing out their lack of ability to do much of anything in the physical world.
Yeah, but the whole point of essence transfer is to transfer the essence. The essence isn't just a powerless, floating ghost. It's the "essence" of the Force user themselves, more real than their physical bodies. Force users are spiritual beings inhabiting physical bodies.
With all due respect, mine isn't a theory. It's a verifiable fact that the essence carries the true power of a Force user, and that power isn't suddenly lost just because the essence is transferred somewhere else. The need for an anchor for Muur's spirit is that he cannot resist the pull of the void without one.
Yes, the Muur talisman being a fixed variable is true. That much I agree with.
Welp, it won't matter until we agree on whether or not an essence carries with it inherent power or is just a powerless, floating intelligence.
I wonder if NewGuy remembers when he and I discussed Anakin vs. Dooku 5 years ago in the chatbox on his own forum that he had made after being exiled from SWF good times
Nov 1st, 2018 11:20 PM
good times
