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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » On The Jedi Exile; Malachor, Dromund Kaas, and Scaling Chains.


On The Jedi Exile; Malachor, Dromund Kaas, and Scaling Chains.
Started by: Selenial

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ILikeSoy
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2019
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Great thread, but I have a couple small issues with it. I hope to explain my point of view here. Sorry, I'm new so I hope I can convey this properly.

1. The Temple Was Sealed


The Temple was seemingly sealed in the timeframe Meetra was on Dromund Kaas.

Delete spaces sorry, am brand new to this.

https ://i.imgur. com/DHLfxzE.jpg

https ://i.imgur. com/YYQ5pEr.jpg

https ://i.imgur. com/KngLa4A.jpg

https ://i.imgur. com/xCSphIP.jpg

https ://i.imgur. com/9SoGlLY.jpg


quote:
The Old Republic Codex

Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers. Although the Dark Temple grounds have always been a dangerous place for the weak-willed (the expansion of the Kaas City power grid into tunnels beneath the temple drove a thousand slaves mad), the temple itself remained sealed until recently, when an expedition of power-hungry Sith Lords and their servants breached the gateway. The Dark Council did not sanction this intrusion, nor did it punish the rogue Sith; no one returned from the expedition to punish. Violent electrical storms surrounded the temple for the first week after it was opened, and since then, additional expeditions have been sent by the council to determine the templeís status. Their reports have not been made public.





We even see this in action when Lord Alaric wants to seal the spirits in so even an attack couldn't rouse the dead spirits awake.

quote:
TOR: Buried Power Quest

Lord Alaric has informed you that a group of Sith have awakened an ancient Sith Lord in the Dark Temple. The ancient lordís power has driven everyone in the temple insane, and their violence threatens to overrun the entire planet. Lord Alaric wants you to seal the tomb doors by fusing the giant hinges together with a special torch.

Youíve sealed the chamber doors in the Dark Temple. Report back to Lord Alaric at Outpost Warden.




It's unlikely that Vitiate let the spirits remain powerful for centuries after capturing them:

quote:
Lord Alaric

"A thousand years ago our own emperor buried his enemies here. These enemies remain powerful, even in death - which is why the temple was sealed."





Kel'eth Ur as well seemed surprised that he had been trapped for almost a millennia, and seems to imply that this is the first time he's seen another being since then.

quote:
Kel'eth Ur

My internal chronometer tells me it has been exact 963 years since this holocron was made. Have the sith truly lived in fear of me for so long?

Fortunately, I had just enough time to make this - an interactive image that would transmit my secrets to anyone that was bold enough to find my tomb and unlock it.


Kallig - a Tulak Hord ancient being - hasn't seemed to wake up until 300 years after Meetra died.

quote:
Kallig

When the weaklings of this planet tresspassed my tomb, I rose, resuming my former life. This temple became my kingdom, and I was once more a Lord of the Sith.



This would point at the temple being closed for 600-700 years before Meetra arrived. Every spirit who was imprisoned seemed to have been there for around 1000 years. If they're roaming around infecting people, it would make sense for him to seal it fairly soon, as opposed to the possibility he waited 700 years and then did it. It doesn't make sense. Vitiate wanted his enemies locked away, he wouldn't wait hundreds of years to finally put a stop to it.



So in summation, it's unlikely the effects of the Temple were leaking out into the city at the time of Meetra's visit. As you've explained in your post, Luke and crew were feeling how bad it was from 2km away. I will divulge details later of how close they got to the nexus.


I forgot about this quote though

quote:
Vitiate
Darkly I proclaim, if only I hadn't sealed up that tomb hundreds of years ago, I wouldn't fear an upcoming battle lasting days and nights with this Meetra Surik!




2. The Dark Prophets Used It For Centuries

The Prophets had the benefit of everything that happened in TOR, A warzone in the Light and Darkness War, using it as a religion for their Dark Force, which should make the grounds a lot more potent than it would have been when Meetra was there.

*See attached image at bottom*

quote:
Ascension

"Such as the fact that this world was a colony of the Sith Empire, but faded into obscurity until after the Great Hyperspace War. It was rediscovered by a Sith armada wandering for two decades. Sound familiar?"

A muscle in Vestara's jaw clenched, but she remained silent. Ben's agitation in the Force increased.

Luke continued. "They rebuilt this world. It became the capital of the next Sith Empire. Until that fell. Its next round of rediscovery came by someone who rejected the Rule of Two, who thought that there was more than enough of the dark side to go around."

"Dad..." Ben started to say.

Luke held up a hand. "He founded a religion that would become known as the Dark Force. There's an ancient temple there still. It was serviced for centuries by the Dark Prophets. It's so steeped in the dark side that it formed its own nexus - one so powerful it interferes with all weaponry and technology except for lightsabers."

[...]

Their destination lay straight ahead. Home to the Dark Prophets, site of an extremely powerful Dark Force nexus, the Sith temple loomed upward, a black, somber silhouette against the gray daylight sky, rendered mysterious and unclear by the mist that occasionally thickened to drizzle. No lights punctured its cold darkness.




As a result of all the tampering that went on there, technology did not work around the Temple:

quote:
Ascension

"It's so steeped in the dark side that it formed its own nexus - one so powerful it interferes with all weaponry and technology except for lightsabers."

[...]

Ben could well believe that in its presence blasters and other mundane energy weapons and technology would be rendered useless. The lightsabers were both simpler and more complex; the technology was simpler; but because of their deep heritage with the Force, they were far more complicated than a blaster.



We see this in action in the video game Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of The Sith; when almost all technology stops working once Mara land on Dromund Kaas.

In TOR however, there are holocrons, spotlights, lights, shields, you can use T7 to fight Vitiate, crates, plasma torches, blasters, etc, that all work within the temple. This indicates the Temple is not nearly as steeped in Darkness as it was in Luke's time.


The nexus was a lot more potent in Luke's time due in part to constant meddling for nearly a millennia.

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 12:55 AM
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ILikeSoy
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2019
Location:


 

3. The Sabers

I won't say it's a great feat, but it's not nearly as bad a feat as you're making the Saber fight out to be. Here are both of their fights minus the last kill for each.

quote:
Ascension

Ben moved toward Khai, but sensed that he himself was under attack. At the last minute he Force-leapt straight up, turned a somersault, and kicked out with both feet. One boot impacted a Sith's face with a satisfying crunch. The other Sith ducked in time. Ben heard the sizzle of a lightsaber moving and jerked his foot up just in time to avoid having it sliced off, but the move forced him to land awkwardly. He hit the flagstones with his body half turned and tried to roll out of the way as the lightsaber slashed down. He was half a heartbeat too slow, and he hissed as the red blade seared his shoulder.

Ignoring the pain, Ben leapt upward, back on both feet and in a crouch as three Sabers turned on him. Their Force auras blazed with confidence. Ben smiled to himself. He parried the two blades with his lightsaber clutched in one hand, whipping back and forth between the two foes. With the other hand, he Force-hurled the third into the air. Alert and attentive, he unerringly directed the Sith's flight toward Gavar Khai, who was bearing down on his offspring so forcefully their blades were a blur.

Ben was rewarded with a grunt from Khai before he had to return his full attention to the remaining two Sabers. His gaze flickered rapidly back and forth between one and the other, keeping their eyes on him as he used the Force to dislodge a flagstone and bring it down with a terrible final smash on the left one's skull. The Sith dropped, his head a bloody mess, and Ben felt the first stirrings of apprehension as he turned on the last one.


quote:
Ascension

Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi's reflexes as it fueled their enemies.

But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style. He knew, too, that because until very recently they had only sparred and perhaps dueled among themselves, they had a lot to learn. But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith.

He felt Jaina in the Force, strong and calm, her back to him but not quite touching his. Bonded by blood and the Force itself, they performed a duet of death to the half dozen Sith pressing in for the attack. They leapt and swung, ducked and kicked in such swift, perfect harmony that an observer might have thought their moves had been choreographed. More than once, an overly confident Saber charged, only to end up slashing at his fellow Sith. In short order two were on the ground, and the odds were now a mere two to one.

Luke could hear the sizzle of lightsabers clashing behind him, only centimeters away, and then the acrid stench of burned flesh as Jaina's blade struck home. Calm, focused, Luke feinted and then came up under one of his adversaries, slicing off both legs in an almost serene manner. The Sith crumpled, but did not cry out. Luke looked at the single remaining Sith who had targeted him, gazing without anger into the Keshiri's narrowed eyes, and felt the first brush of real fear from his opponent.

"I will be as swift and sure as I may," Luke assured her, almost compassionately, and bore down intently.



The takeaway here is that Ben's injury was vividly explained, and it's really not surprising he got hurt in a 3 on 1 fight even excluding the nexus. Still, he performed very well while using the force to kill one of them.

Luke's fight had him and Jaina not being touched at all, and it was described as almost perfect choreography. So either he was joking about the salve, or it was purely for muscle relief or something among that nature from hitting the Sabers too hard. He didn't need the force, but if Ben can kill a Saber while using it, it'd be foolish to assume Luke couldn't as well.

Both fights had Luke and Ben sensing their opponents in the heat of battle.


Each Saber was a capable combatant on their own as well.

quote:
Ascension

"We lost all ten of them, some of our best Sabers."

quote:
Ascension

But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith.



Each Saber seemed to be around 43.5/Backlash Ben level as well. He killed this Saber with a distraction. Backed up by Vestara becoming a Saber after slaying her Saber Father as well, so it's a prestigious rank.

quote:
Backlash

One Sith Saber was down, dead. This still should have been a lopsided match, Gaalan matching Luke, the first female Saber matching Ben, the second Saber overmatching Dyon and almost killing the Jedi washout instantly.



One rank about Sith Saber was Gaalan. Who Luke mused would be a match for Kyp; so the Lost Tribe wasn't completely lost when it came to training - just against Luke were the Sabers considered unskilled. Their actual training can eventually propel characters who never appeared before, nor again; to Gaalan level.

quote:
Backlash

Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.

Luke smiled at the man.



Yes, the nexus did play a part in Ben drawing on the force, but it only made him draw on it more heavily, it wasn't shown to hinder his power, besides potential stamina drain. There's also a very important part you missed in that quote

quote:
Ascension

Ben drew more and more heavily on the Force-it was difficult here, so close to a dark-side nexus, and it took more out of him. Two of his foes were down. One was dead. The other, having nearly been cut in two, was lying thrashing on the flagstones, her face twisted in a silent scream.

His senses were sharp, extended, focusing not just on battling the Sith but also on observing how his father, Jaina, and Vestara fared in the fight. As he had expected, the uncle-niece team of Skywalker and Solo were doing just fine. He could see the corpses strewn about, and with a flash of black humor thought the Sith, now potential tripping hazards, were more of a threat dead than alive.



We see a similar exaggerated scenario in Apocalypse play out which would explain why he has to draw on the force harder; because the Nexus was blocking it out. It doesn't necessarily weaken him, it just makes it harder to get the pure light. A hindrance to be sure of course, but not something that actually lowered his power, until it explicitly says it. He was shown to acquire all the energy needed for his task, he just had to try harder to do it.

A fair comparison would be a boxer who had suddenly taken up smoking. His speed, power, and reflexes should be unfettered; yet he would tire out faster due to not being able to catch his breath as well as he usually does. Or perhaps a higher elevation draining you of air faster than being at sea level? In any case, that is what it was portrayed as, him simply having to try harder to draw in more power, not necessarily his power being lower.

Their senses were portrayed very well in the heat of battle, so much so that Ben was able to keep track of Luke, Jaina, their fight, and his remaining Saber in the fight. Them not sensing an approach did not apply to their combative ability.


*Picture of Dark Prophets post intended for last post*

Attachment: jdzy8lg (1).jpg
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 12:57 AM
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ILikeSoy
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2019
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4. They Fought Right In Front Of The Temple

Self explanatory

quote:
Ascension

Luke came to a stop some twenty meters from the temple. He drew his lightsaber but did not light it, not yet. Ben emulated him, feeling his father's own heightened attention in the Force. For a moment, they all stood, subconsciously forming a row, and regarded the temple.

It was solid stone, gray and massive, and heavy with banked threat. The darkness emanating from it was almost like a sound so deep that one could not hear it, but could feel it in one's bones or blood. Ben could well believe that in its presence blasters and other mundane energy weapons and technology would be rendered useless. The lightsabers were both simpler and more complex; the technology was simpler, but because of their deep heritage with the Force, they were far more complicated than a blaster.



So, to sum all this information up about The Dark Temple nexus:

The Temple was open, and they were were directly in front of it

It's likely the Temple was sealed when Meetra arrived on Dromund Kaas -she was nowhere near the same nexus as well. That's not to say what she faced wasn't dark, but it wasn't the same quantity or proximity. It renders the comparison between her and Luke's showing impossible.

The Temple proclaimed it was much more darkly than in the part

The Temple had became far more potent in the 4000 years since Meetra was slain. Had the exact same fight scene played out - Where Meetra fought in front of the Temple - it still wouldn't have been the same breadth of power that Luke and his team face 4000 years later.

The Sabers weren't complete fodder

The Sabers were capable combatants that were fodder against Luke Skywalker - the most powerful Jedi of all time. It also implies that 6 of them would force a fight of sorts out of a serious Luke outside the Dromund Kaas nexus. I wouldn't be putting them in threads anytime, but they weren't portrayed as armies of assassin level fodder.

The nexus wasn't as much a hindrance as implied

The two things applied to the nexus were slowing the reflexes of Luke/Jaina (never displayed it once they started fighting), and making Ben call on the force more heavily which was wearing him out. Keeping in mind they were 20 meters away from the Temple; I wouldn't try applying such minor effects to Meetra who was actually kilometers away at best at all times.

Obviously I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, just that it wasn't portrayed to effect their combat ability as much as implied. It did dull their senses to detect where the Sabers were before they appeared, however that's because they were sitting right beside one of the greatest nexuses in the galaxy, and the Sabers were rather weak in comparison. Once they knew where the Sabers were, their senses were meritorious.

None of these things were stated to be a factor for Meetra. The comparison has its faults on every stance. It's unusable to me.

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 12:58 AM
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ILikeSoy
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2019
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5. Meetra

I might have done bad research here, but Meetra was never said to have been hindered in power by Dromund Kaas. The closest thing was it sending a shiver down her spine, but it was nothing compared to Nathema (which wasn't a Darkside nexus), or her having a tough time finding inner tranquility. I'm sure you remember her running off of Nathema, which shows the book wasn't afraid to let the reader know when Meetra was uncomfortable.

Here's all the quotes that talk of her strength, or the effects of the darkside since arriving on Dromand Kaas:

quote:
Revan

She knew the storm - ravaged world had to be the world Canderous had spoken of; the one Revan had seen in his dreams. The dark side was powerful here. It was strong enough to send a shiver down her spine, but the sensation was infinitely better than the awful nothingness of Nathema.

As she brought the ship in to land, she knew with a sudden and unshakable certainty that Revan was somewhere on this world.

"He's here, Tee-Three," she informed her companion, trying to contain her excitement. "I can feel it."


[...]

He [Scourge] was impressed with how easily she had dismantled Murtog and his handpicked team. He could feel her channeling the Force, yet it was somehow different from what he had felt when he battled other Sith.

She wasn't afraid to kill, but he sensed she took no real pleasure in it. Instead of feeding off her anger and hate, it was as if she kept her emotions at arm's length so the Force could flow through her unhindered.

Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn't know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge. Yet another part of him knew she represented something far more significant than a worthy foe.

[...]

Revan spun Meetra to the side and stepped in front of her, an instinctive but foolish move. Meetra was a Jedi; she knew how to handle herself. And unarmed he was no match for the Sith.

[...]

A steady drizzle fell on them as they climbed into the speeder. They rode in silence, all of them preparing in their own way for what they knew lay ahead. Meetra had gone into what Revan called her warrior's trance; she sat still and straight, her eyes focused on nothing as she stared straight ahead.

He had seen it many times during the war against the Mandalorians. Before each major battle she would try to center her emotions, cleansing herself of all fear and hatred lest the imminent violence draw her toward the dark side. She believed she could transform herself into a perfect conduit for the Force, an incorruptible weapon of light.

Revan was no longer sure such a thing was possible, but he didnít say anything to Meetra for fear of disrupting her routine.





Revan still wasn't sure if he would have lost had Scourge not betrayed them.

quote:
Revan

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn't even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

[...]

It was impossible to know what would have happened if Scourge had not betrayed them in the throne room. They might have lost anyway, but they also might have defeated the Emperor, forever freeing the galaxy from the threat of annihilation at the hands of a madman. There was no way to be sure, and no point in dwelling on the past.




Revan recognized her potential from the Mandalorian days, and realized she had become far greater than he could ever imagine - on Dromund Kaas.

quote:
Revan

Yet there had been another - a powerful Jedi named Meetra Surik. Meetra had been among the first to join Revan's cause, and she quickly proved herself to be a brilliant tactician and military leader.

Recognizing her potential, Revan had made her a general, giving her control over nearly half of the Republic and Jedi troops under his command.

[...]

"No," Revan said, shaking his head. "Do not underestimate all you have accomplished. Nobody else could have found me across an entire galaxy. Nobody else could have saved me from my imprisonment." He studied her for a moment. "I was told you had been cut off from the Force, but I can sense its power in you. I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined."

"I'm just following in your footsteps."

"Not anymore," Revan replied. "You have blazed your own trail. I can sense you have walked a path even I would not dare to tread. I owe you everything, Meetra. It is a debt I will never be able to repay."

"No," Meetra said with a wan smile. "Without your teaching, I could never have become what I am today. I am the one who owes a debt she can never repay."

"Then why donít we call it even?" Revan said.




The one time she was stated to be hindered had to do with inner tranquility. Even Revan had trouble seeing visions, but this, alas, was all the book gave us to say that the Darkside of the planet had done anything to Meetra.

quote:
Revan

Meetra sat still and silent on the floor of the cave, her legs crossed and her hands held at chest height, palms facing each other. She had opened herself up to the Force, looking for guidance and wisdom, but here on Dromund Kaas, where the dark side prevailed, it was difficult to find the inner tranquility necessary for enlightenment.

Having T3 running long, nervous circles around her certainly didn't help, but she was afraid if she told him to stay still he might have a meltdown. And she understood the droidís anxiety.

[...]

"Have you had any visions of what will happen when we face the Emperor?"

"No," Revan said. "The dark side obscures my sight. We are walking into a time and place of shadows, and I cannot promise you that we will ever come out."

"Doesn't that terrify you?"

"Fear is only an emotion; a trick the mind plays on us. You must learn to set your fear aside."

"We Sith are taught to embrace our fear," Scourge told him. "We transform it into anger and use it to fuel the power of the dark side."

"But then your actions will always be driven by that fear," Revan said.




Not only does she have experience with more potent nexuses (a testament to her power and will to be sure), but we also have her inner thoughts about said nexus. We get both this, and Nathema, yet we get nothing that comes close to this level of stress from Dromund Kaas.

quote:
Revan

As the ship drew closer to the dingy brown world she felt a growing sense of unease and discomfort. In some ways it reminded her of Malachor V - the massive and instantaneous loss of life on that doomed world had created a wound in the Force. The activation of the mass-shadow generator had obliterated two armies, shredding apart the bonds of the Force that linked all living things.

Meetra had been close enough to feel the shock wave; to survive it she had cut herself off from the Force, shielding her psyche against the horrors of what she had unleashed. Many years had passed before she regained her connection to the Force, but in the end, surviving the trauma of Malachor V had given her the strength to defeat Darth Traya and her followers.

At first she assumed some similar tragedy had occurred on Nathema; a superweapon capable of snuffing out an entire planet would leave a blanketing echo of death and darkness. As the Ebon Hawk descended through the atmosphere, however, she realized this sensation was markedly different.

[...]

She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life... until now.

On Malachor she'd felt the echoes of unimaginable pain and suffering - but at least she'd felt something. Here on Nathema, there was only a cold emptiness. It was unnatural; abhorrent. On Malachor she had felt the echo of great destruction; here there was only the unbearable void of annihilation.




So in summation with the above points, I don't think Meetra was that bad by being on Dromund Kaas. Sure, I wouldn't say she would do as well as on say Ossus, but to what degree she would be hindered? We don't know. Her power was only ever stated in a positive light, even beyond what Revan ever thought possible. Nyriss was amped - we know that - but we don't know if Meetra's power was hindered in anyway, so you can't take some off the top and give some to Nyriss just to even the difference. I don't believe it's applicable to normal Nyriss, but we have no idea where she stands; which is where the quandary with that lies. I don't believe it's possible to either ignore this showing or use this as a jumping on point to her power being even higher off-world. The proof simply doesn't exist in my eyes. Made even more questionable by the Luke comparisons not being concrete.

I could go on here, but I think the point has been made.

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 12:59 AM
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ILikeSoy
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2019
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We shall end this on a high note. Meetra Surik as a spirit was able to supply power to Revan through a shield.

quote:
Revan

Meetra could sense his suffering. When she had died, she had not become one with the Force. Loyal to the end, her spirit had remained with Revan, an invisible presence hovering just outside his cell.

She couldnít speak with him; whatever arcane Sith sorcery the Emperor had used to bind Revan in his cell made that impossible. She doubted Revan was even aware she was there. Yet even though she couldnít communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment.

As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war.

Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.



Which is both good and bad. Good because it's a great feat; no denying. Bad, because it shows she was operating on a fairly high level, or at least Drew had a high opinion of her power - Just not Revan level. I do agree with you that Nyriss being amped to a non-quantifiable level doesn't reflect badly on Meetra. I also believe that Drew forgot about her Force Wound enough that it wasn't a factor, so it should be safe to say it was healed. That however doesn't give us an accurate power level to me, but it does mean she wouldn't be feeding off death.




That's really all I disagree with. The rest is good.

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 01:00 AM
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Selenial
I Choose Violence

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
Great thread, but I have a couple small issues with it. I hope to explain my point of view here. Sorry, I'm new so I hope I can convey this properly.


Honestly not an awful post. Awful attempt at the whole 'I'm new' thing but hey ho, you'll get there.

quote:
1. The Temple Was Sealed
The Temple was seemingly sealed in the timeframe Meetra was on Dromund Kaas.

We even see this in action when Lord Alaric wants to seal the spirits in so even an attack couldn't rouse the dead spirits awake.


Sure, but Alaric's actions had nothing to do with Kallig's pacification. Sealing the the spirits in is more a case of ensuring that host bodies couldn't enter the temple for them to control, as the Sith spirits on Kaas had driven the slaves insane into believing themselves Dark Lords of the Sith.

These spirits with their hosts were supposedly capable of overrunning Dromund Kaas, so they were evidently capable of imbuing significant power into their hosts. Hence the need to seal the temple, it wouldn't do anything to contain the nexus (in fact that's not how nexuses are indicated to work, anywhere) but to stop the spread.


quote:
Kel'eth Ur as well seemed surprised that he had been trapped for almost a millennia, and seems to imply that this is the first time he's seen another being since then.


True, Kel'eth Ur also was only able to project himself via a holocron, he wouldn't 'see' another being unless someone accessed it.

quote:
Kallig - a Tulak Hord ancient being - hasn't seemed to wake up until 300 years after Meetra died.


Which he attributes entirely to the ascension and awakening of his blood line in the form of Nox, keep up.


quote:
This would point at the temple being closed for 600-700 years before Meetra arrived. Every spirit who was imprisoned seemed to have been there for around 1000 years. If they're roaming around infecting people, it would make sense for him to seal it fairly soon, as opposed to the possibility he waited 700 years and then did it. It doesn't make sense. Vitiate wanted his enemies locked away, he wouldn't wait hundreds of years to finally put a stop to it.


There's really nothing to suggest containing the spirits contained the power though, indeed Luke mentioned nothing of spirits, only power. Sure, the nexus is anchored on the temple, but so is the nexus of the citadel and Scourge could still draw on that from kilometers away. A much lesser nexus, too.

quote:
I forgot about this quote though


I enjoyed that I won't lie.

quote:
2. The Dark Prophets Used It For Centuries

The Prophets had the benefit of everything that happened in TOR, A warzone in the Light and Darkness War, using it as a religion for their Dark Force, which should make the grounds a lot more potent than it would have been when Meetra was there.

*See attached image at bottom*

As a result of all the tampering that went on there, technology did not work around the Temple:

We see this in action in the video game Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of The Sith; when almost all technology stops working once Mara land on Dromund Kaas.

In TOR however, there are holocrons, spotlights, lights, shields, you can use T7 to fight Vitiate, crates, plasma torches, blasters, etc, that all work within the temple. This indicates the Temple is not nearly as steeped in Darkness as it was in Luke's time.

The nexus was a lot more potent in Luke's time due in part to constant meddling for nearly a millennia.


The technology point is interesting, but that's not actually what it says. Technology is interfered with, not necessarily rendered useless - that's Ben's conjecture - for what it's worth, Kyle's shuttle functioned fine, as did Mara's in Mysteries of the Sith

To suggest that the prophets influence was more than Vitiates as well is a fallacy and you know it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
3. The Sabers

The takeaway here is that Ben's injury was vividly explained, and it's really not surprising he got hurt in a 3 on 1 fight even excluding the nexus. Still, he performed very well while using the force to kill one of them.

Luke's fight had him and Jaina not being touched at all, and it was described as almost perfect choreography. So either he was joking about the salve, or it was purely for muscle relief or something among that nature from hitting the Sabers too hard. He didn't need the force, but if Ben can kill a Saber while using it, it'd be foolish to assume Luke couldn't as well.

Both fights had Luke and Ben sensing their opponents in the heat of battle.


We did not see the entirety of Luke and Jaina's fight with the sabers, the descriptions in the novel jump from one battle to the next. You cannot dismiss Luke's need for a kolto tank as recuperating his muscles, A Jedi would never need such a basic application of medical technology. Unless you're saying his force powers were so diminished by the nexus his muscles hurt, lmao.

It is relatively surprising, actually. You glossed over a quote far more important than the fact Luke was concentrating, even he recognised that there were substantial flaws in the Saber's duelling ability and aptitude for the force; 'But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style. He knew, too, that because until very recently they had only sparred and perhaps dueled among themselves, they had a lot to learn.'

Still, Ben found himself being too slow to dodge one, as did evidently Luke and Jaina.

quote:
We see a similar exaggerated scenario in Apocalypse play out which would explain why he has to draw on the force harder; because the Nexus was blocking it out. It doesn't necessarily weaken him, it just makes it harder to get the pure light. A hindrance to be sure of course, but not something that actually lowered his power, until it explicitly says it. He was shown to acquire all the energy needed for his task, he just had to try harder to do it.


Indeed, and the fact it takes more energy to perform basic tasks also means you cannot perform at peak capacity. If it takes you more energy to perform a task than normal, it also means that exerting all your power would result in less than peak levels.

That's pretty basic, and exactly how force nexuses effect people, yeh


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 02:39 AM
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Selenial
I Choose Violence

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
4. They Fought Right In Front Of The Temple

Self explanatory

So, to sum all this information up about The Dark Temple nexus:

The Temple was open, and they were were directly in front of it

It's likely the Temple was sealed when Meetra arrived on Dromund Kaas -she was nowhere near the same nexus as well. That's not to say what she faced wasn't dark, but it wasn't the same quantity or proximity. It renders the comparison between her and Luke's showing impossible.

The Temple proclaimed it was much more darkly than in the part

The Temple had became far more potent in the 4000 years since Meetra was slain. Had the exact same fight scene played out - Where Meetra fought in front of the Temple - it still wouldn't have been the same breadth of power that Luke and his team face 4000 years later.

The Sabers weren't complete fodder

The Sabers were capable combatants that were fodder against Luke Skywalker - the most powerful Jedi of all time. It also implies that 6 of them would force a fight of sorts out of a serious Luke outside the Dromund Kaas nexus. I wouldn't be putting them in threads anytime, but they weren't portrayed as armies of assassin level fodder.

The nexus wasn't as much a hindrance as implied

The two things applied to the nexus were slowing the reflexes of Luke/Jaina (never displayed it once they started fighting), and making Ben call on the force more heavily which was wearing him out. Keeping in mind they were 20 meters away from the Temple; I wouldn't try applying such minor effects to Meetra who was actually kilometers away at best at all times.

Obviously I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, just that it wasn't portrayed to effect their combat ability as much as implied. It did dull their senses to detect where the Sabers were before they appeared, however that's because they were sitting right beside one of the greatest nexuses in the galaxy, and the Sabers were rather weak in comparison. Once they knew where the Sabers were, their senses were meritorious.

None of these things were stated to be a factor for Meetra. The comparison has its faults on every stance. It's unusable to me.


The temple may have been closed to the public (though not entirely as we know Vitiate conducted rituals there throughout that era) but you have absolutely no proof that this somehow locks the nexus out of use for other people, especially since we know Scourge could draw on a lesser nexus from a greater distance.

You have no proof that the temple became more of a nexus than during Vitiate's time, just that the nexus slowly improved over the thousand years immediately before Luke's arrival. Logic dictates that Vitiate's experiments would actually make the reverse true, but either way we have strong accolades representing the TOR era nexus as at least as strong.

Yeh, the sabers are fodder.

As displayed, Surik was not kilometers away, and we already have proof that the nexus was felt as far out as two kilometers away anyway. The point of this thread was never supposed to indicate that Surik was facing the exact same conditions as Luke, Ben and Jaina, merely that the effect on a fight against one of the strongest Sith in the empire would be huge. Not to mention the fact you're plainly ignoring Surik was within the vicinity of two nexuses, not one.

In truth, your argument focuses on flat out ignoring sections of the text because you think they don't fit. 'Their senses can't be dulled because they used them later', 'Luke can't be injured as stated because we didn't see it happen', these are weak, baseless and illogical stances to take, tbfh. Take what the novel says and deal with it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
5. Meetra

I might have done bad research here, but Meetra was never said to have been hindered in power by Dromund Kaas. The closest thing was it sending a shiver down her spine, but it was nothing compared to Nathema (which wasn't a Darkside nexus), or her having a tough time finding inner tranquility. I'm sure you remember her running off of Nathema, which shows the book wasn't afraid to let the reader know when Meetra was uncomfortable.

So in summation with the above points, I don't think Meetra was that bad by being on Dromund Kaas. Sure, I wouldn't say she would do as well as on say Ossus, but to what degree she would be hindered? We don't know. Her power was only ever stated in a positive light, even beyond what Revan ever thought possible. Nyriss was amped - we know that - but we don't know if Meetra's power was hindered in anyway, so you can't take some off the top and give some to Nyriss just to even the difference. I don't believe it's applicable to normal Nyriss, but we have no idea where she stands; which is where the quandary with that lies. I don't believe it's possible to either ignore this showing or use this as a jumping on point to her power being even higher off-world. The proof simply doesn't exist in my eyes. Made even more questionable by the Luke comparisons not being concrete.


The substantial problem with the Revan novel in this regard is that we never see the Exile fight Nyriss from her perspective, nor do we really see her do anything taxing with the force from her perspective. Most of the fights are from Scourge and Revan's perspective, understandable given the style of the novel, but lead discussions like this into uncertainty, hence a need to look at other portrayals of the same conditions to understand what was happening.

You're right, we know for an indisputable fact that Nyriss and Scourge were amped significantly by the novel. Pretty much every other source in the mythos states that Jedi find it difficult and harder to draw on the force on a Dark Side Nexus. Another novel even shows some of the strongest Jedi in history struggling. This is circumstantial evidence, I'll admit, but people are imprisoned for life on circumstantial evidence when enough adds up that the overall picture is indisputable. The picture here is, to be honest, indisputable. To suggest that this logic fails because we don't see fights from Surik's perspective and thus she can't have been hindered is ludicrous.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
Which is both good and bad. Good because it's a great feat; no denying. Bad, because it shows she was operating on a fairly high level, or at least Drew had a high opinion of her power - Just not Revan level. I do agree with you that Nyriss being amped to a non-quantifiable level doesn't reflect badly on Meetra. I also believe that Drew forgot about her Force Wound enough that it wasn't a factor, so it should be safe to say it was healed. That however doesn't give us an accurate power level to me, but it does mean she wouldn't be feeding off death.


On this, and on Revan's sensing her power, I agree tbh. I nowhere in this thread stated she was Revan level, or anything close. She wasn't, I acknowledge that, and the Revan novel makes a strong argument as to her actual power levels in the eyes of Revan.

What you need to understand is that as of the Mandalorian Civil War, Vrook, Vandar and Revan all sensed immense potential in the Exile. We know via scaling chains that the Exile scales far beyond people Revan had immense respect for, power wise, before she even came close to the power levels she had in the Revan novel. We also know thanks to TOR that Scourge's opinion of her was high above his opinion of himself, yet he still thought in the novel that it would be an interesting fight.

None of these holistic portrayals line up with her feats on Kaas, and add yet more circumstantial evidence to the pile that is this case, everything points to one conclusion, and people need to stop insinuating that there's not enough evidence to make a concrete case when there's also nothing refuting it.

Anyway, interesting post. Probably the most interesting part is I now have a decent idea as to who you are smile


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Last edited by Selenial on Jan 17th, 2019 at 02:43 AM

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 02:39 AM
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AncientPower
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I love how the same source that everyone uses to claim Malak >> Kun also says Lucien Draay can give Darth Vader a good fight, someone Surik obviously scales from. But nobody cares about that.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 03:36 AM
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victreebelvictr
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
I love how the same source that everyone uses to claim Malak >> Kun also says Lucien Draay can give Darth Vader a good fight, someone Surik obviously scales from. But nobody cares about that.
You are very persistent. smile


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 03:38 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
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Nexus or not, a stronger individual is likely to prevail in a fight even in a stressful environment.

We see Sith Warriors including Darth Malgus defeating Jedi of all manner in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant without breaking a sweat.

I do not think it is wise to underestimate the likes of Darth Nyriss. That Meetra Surik is powerful, is not the question. However, she was up against a member of the Dark Council and these Sith are officially and repeatedly stated to be among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy at any point in time on average.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 04:48 PM
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victreebelvictr
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I believe there was some quote stating that Traya>Surik.

Didn't Surik defeat Traya though?


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 05:01 PM
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ImAnAdultVirgin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I believe there was some quote stating that Traya>Surik.


This one?

(please log in to view the image)

Well, it probably refers to her being more powerful than Sion, not Meetra.

Last edited by ImAnAdultVirgin on Jan 17th, 2019 at 05:05 PM

Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 05:02 PM
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victreebelvictr
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ImAnAdultVirgin
This one?

(please log in to view the image)

Well, it probably refers to her being more powerful than Sion, not Meetra.
She defintiely is more powerful than Sion, but I always thought she was more powerful than Surik.

I think Surik only won due to the fact that Traya is powerful more so outside of duels. erm


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 05:09 PM
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Selenial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nexus or not, a stronger individual is likely to prevail in a fight even in a stressful environment.

We see Sith Warriors including Darth Malgus defeating Jedi of all manner in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant without breaking a sweat.


Padawans, yeh.

And no, youíre factually incorrect with that one. If a Jedi and Sith are close or even, a nexus will make a significant difference. Dooku on Vjun, for example, states that Vjun was enough to make Dooku clearly surpass Windu.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 05:11 PM
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Selenial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
I love how the same source that everyone uses to claim Malak >> Kun also says Lucien Draay can give Darth Vader a good fight, someone Surik obviously scales from. But nobody cares about that.


Itís not really the same source, but yeh. It also says he can give Bane a good fight iirc, which is probably more important given how low people around these parts rate Vader.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 10:00 PM
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NewGuy01
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I don't think Bane is any better off.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2019 10:15 PM
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Petrus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nexus or not, a stronger individual is likely to prevail in a fight even in a stressful environment.

We see Sith Warriors including Darth Malgus defeating Jedi of all manner in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant without breaking a sweat.

I do not think it is wise to underestimate the likes of Darth Nyriss. That Meetra Surik is powerful, is not the question. However, she was up against a member of the Dark Council and these Sith are officially and repeatedly stated to be among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy at any point in time on average.


Um, this argument is pretty much debunked on the first post of this thread, LeG. Ya know, all the Luke & Ben fighting Sith Sabers stuff? smile


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2019 11:52 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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@Selenial

quote:
Padawans, yeh.

And no, youíre factually incorrect with that one. If a Jedi and Sith are close or even, a nexus will make a significant difference. Dooku on Vjun, for example, states that Vjun was enough to make Dooku clearly surpass Windu.


Not only padawans but Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters. Renowned figures among them; Jedi Masters Ven Zallow and Usma are two notable examples. Bengel Morr was also there, but managed to escape. The Jedi and Republic troops collectively outnumbered Sith raiders by a substantial margin on top.

You are taking Yoda's musings at face value in case of Count Dooku's effectiveness on Vjun. Keep in mind that Mace Windu sported the rare combination of Shatterpoint abilities and Vaapad to negate Dooku's implied advantage on Vjun.

---

Your argument have merits of its own but its basic premise is not sound; it advances the notion that devoted practitioners of the Dark Side are powerful in environments strong in the Dark Side, but would fail in a supposedly neutral setting.


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Old Post Jan 30th, 2019 06:48 AM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not only padawans but Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters. Renowned figures among them; Jedi Masters Ven Zallow

Malgus didn't exactly defeat him without breaking a sweat?


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Old Post Jan 30th, 2019 07:43 AM
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CuckedCurry

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Zallow was > Malgus in overt technical skill

Old Post Jan 30th, 2019 08:22 AM
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