JediHDM> I'm re-posting my last post here that actually had anything to do with this topic.
No, I think the Architect is what and who he says he is. The Wachoski Brothers adhere to classic storytelling, with helpers and enemies, obstacles and so on and so forth. They simply twist the environment, NOT the classic story in itself, so the content of the story becomes warped.
If Neo would’ve entered the Source, the sentinels would reach Zion and kill EVERYONE there, including everyone onboard every single hovercraft. That would include Trinity. So by showing Neo the images of Trinity falling to her death, the Architect is relaying the message: “She is going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.” In other words, choosing to return to the Matrix wouldn’t save her. Trinity would die.
It is actually here that the (in)famous sex-scene from Reloaded gains it’s total credibility. Neo is willing to TRY, he is ready to sacrifice all of humanity to save his beloved. That was the one thing the Architect could NOT forsee.
Omega> Thank you for giving an alternate reason for the sex-scene, im really tired of people discounting my ideas before thinking about them. Although im not talking about you or Sifer, although sometimes it seems like Sifer argues just to argue... It's like the Oracle says "Being the One, is like being in love. Nobody tells you you're in love, you just know it, through and through." The Archie, for all his wisdom and Peeping-Tom-edness, doesn't understand Human emotions, and thereby is weaker than the "intuitive program" he seems to dislike so much.
Diverging... If we are to go by Mythology, then who is Hera? Is she the intuitive program? or is she the mother of the matrix, or the "child" the Oracle speaks of. If we think of Archie as being Zeus, and he is the father of the Matrix, and the father of the "child", then the mother of the Matrix and the mother of the "child" are most likely two different programs. This would add an interesting twist. Perhaps Oracle is an old program, and she would be the Athena counterpart, created by Archie, and the mother of the Matrix. the Hera counterpart could be the mother of the "child", but through her jealousy, sells the code to Oracles shell to Mero., the brother of Hera. Archie and Hera would be trusted by Oracle, but we must realize who the child is, before we can learn the mother. This thing gets more and more involved every day... its like the onion skin. You realize the truth of one layer, and peel it off, to learn there is another layer under that, and another under that...
yes, sifer, you do always come up with valid arguments, which is why i tease you. Even if i don't agree with you, you make it a very interesting debate, and you force me to "use the muscle that matters most"...my heart! just joking. you make us think, and that is good, cause otherwise we are the same as the people on the streets, ignorant, still a part of the system, our potential enemies, whom we fight for, whom we die for...
JediHDM> People can and DO get stubborn in regards to topics as:
1) Sex/rave scene in Zion
2) Matrix within the Matrix
3) Do programs lie?
4) Who’s the Mother of the Matrix?
And so on and so forth. Sometimes the best thing to do is ask them WHY it’s so important to have this or that aspects of the movie interpreted as ONLY this or that. I, for example, is a stubborn “The real world is real”. That’ quite simply because more matrices make me uneasy. If the W-brothers keep pulling he rugs from under my feet, what, then, IS real?
Well, Sifer likes to play to local Morpheus.
“Unfortunately I can’t tell you what I think, you have to see it for youself.” (Sifer> j/K 😄)
Ah. And the Oracle is not only an intuitive program. She (it) also knows about love. Now, how did she do that? Of course, one could argue that emotions are part of our psyche, and therefore the Oracle understands them or, at least, knows about them.
As for Hera. Hmmm. Do you know what generation of Olympian Gods she belongs to? Zeus had many wives/lovers. Perhaps we should also take a peek at the myth of Prometheus in relations to Neo.
Prometheus and his brother were both Titans, and given the task of creating man, after the war with the Olympians. Prometheus decided to make man stand upright as the gods did and to give them fire. Prometheus loved man more than the Olympians. So when Zeus decreed that man must present a portion of each animal they clarified to the gods Prometheus decided to trick Zeus.
He created two piles to offer Zeus. In one pile, Prometheus arranged the edible parts of an ox in a hide and disguised them with a covering of entrails. In the other, he placed the bones, which he covered with fat. Zeus, asked to choose between the two, took the fat and was very angry when he discovered that it covered a pile of bones. Thereafter, only fat and bones were sacrificed to the gods; the good meat was kept for mortals. Since the powerful god had given his word, Zeus himself had to accept that as his share for future sacrifices. In his anger over the trick he took fire away from man. However, Prometheus lit a torch from the sun and brought it back again to man. Zeus was enraged that man again had fire. He decided to inflict a terrible punishment on both man and Prometheus. To punish man, Zeus had Hephaestus create a mortal of stunning beauty. The gods gave the mortal many gifts of wealth. He then had Hermes give the mortal a deceptive heart and a lying tongue. This creation was Pandora, the first women. A final gift was a jar which Pandora was forbidden to open. Thus, completed Zeus sent Pandora down to Epimetheus who was staying amongst the men. Prometheus had warned Epimetheus not to accept gifts from Zeus but, Pandora's beauty was too great and he allowed her to stay. Eventually, Pandora's curiosity about the jar she was forbidden to open became too great. She opened the jar and out flew all sorts of previously unexistent evils, sorrows, plagues, and misfortunes, all of which came down on Man from that day on. However, the bottom of the jar held one good thing left for mankind -- Hope.
When Zeus had punished men by having given them women (from Pandora descended all women afterwards), he turned his attention to the "Arch-sinner" himself -- Prometheus. It was true that Zeus owed Prometheus much for having aided him in conquering the Titans, but he forgot this debt with Prometheus quickly. Zeus was angry at Prometheus for three things: for being tricked in the sacrifices, for having stolen the forbidden fire for man, and for refusing to tell Zeus which of Zeus' children would one day dethrone him (as was foretold). Zeus had his servants, Force and Violence, seize Prometheus, take him to the Caucasus Mountains, and chain him to a rock with unbreakable adamantine chains.
Here on Mount Caucasus, Prometheus was tormented day and night by a giant eagle tearing at his liver. By day, the eagle would come down to the cliff and devour Prometheus' liver, and by night the liver would regenerate, only to have it destroyed the following day again. The reason for inflicting this torture was not only to punish Prometheus, but also to force Prometheus to reveal the secret so important to the supreme ruler of the Olympian gods. Zeus knew very well that FATE, who makes all things happen and become a reality, had decreed that a son would some day be born to him who would dethrone him and drive the gods from his home in heaven, but only Prometheus knew who the mother of that child would be. (These are prominent facts in the myth.)
But nothing persuaded prometheus to break down. Nothing was able to achieve Zeus' desires and whims. Prometheus' body was bound to the Caucasus, but his Spirit and Mind were FREE! He refused to submit to tyranny, cruelty, abuse, and greed. Prometheus also knew that he had always served Zeus well, and that he had done right in feeling compassion and Love for mankind (the mortals) in their helplessness and frailty. His suffering was utterly unjust, and he would NOT give in to brutal power, no matter at what cost! Prometheus declared to Hermes (Messenger of the gods):
There is no force which can compel me to speech.
So let Zeus hurl his blazing bolts,
And with the white wings of the snow,
With thunder and with earthquake,
Confound the world.
None of all this will bend my will.
The torment and the suffering lasted for generations. Eventually, though, he was released in a rather obscure and odd manner. Chiron the Centaur, after having been fatally but unintentionally wounded by Heracles (Hercules) in a battle against the other evil Centaurs, agreed to die for Prometheus by taking his place. Prometheus had been previously urged by Hermes to give in to Zeus, but Prometheus had answered him that he would never do so. but Chiron, though immortal himself, was willing to die for Prometheus. Thus it happened that Hercules came to the Caucasus with Chiron along, and he slew the giant eagle violently and freed Prometheus from his chains. Zeus was in agreement with this, but why he suddenly changed his mind we will never know. One fact is certain, though -- Prometheus never broke in spirit, nor mind. As a result, Prometheus has always stood for a symbol of unbreakable Truth and Justice. For unrelinquishing bravery in the face of the ruling and cruel Powerful who inflict suffering on the rest of mankind. His name has been associated throughout the centuries and milleniums as that of the GREAT REBEL AGAINST INJUSTICE AND THE CRUEL AUTHORITY OF TYRANNICAL POWER.
True, true... Well said, Omega. Well said, Sifer. 💃 😄
Omega> it is funny that you said Sifer is Morpheus, b/c i was thinking the exact same thing. WE, OMega, Sifer and i, have created our own trinity, subconciously no doubt. Omega, it seems that you are Trinity, and Sifer is Morpheus, but i do not feel that i myself should be considered as Neo; i do not feel as though i deserve that honor. However, i think that, although we may not always agree, we are, it seems, inexplicably bound together, for some reason... I have enjoyed our conversations, really i have, it has been an honor, and it will continue to be an honor. Thank you, both of you. ✅