I liked Opiate,Undertow,and Aneima (spellcheck),but the last two releases just seem like the same as Aneima,only not as good.I think,if you look at Opiate all the way to Aneima,they were really making the music better and better,and to me with Lateraulus,the musical growth just quit.They fine tuned it,and made their style nearly flawless in delivery,but it lost its creative flair.
I believe TOOL's latest work is ,on a musical level,better than anything they have ever made.It's just I expected more out of TOOL.Bands like FEAR FACTORY and RATM I loved,but I always knew what to expect from them.With TOOL,they were always changing the sounds somehow and that creative growith stopped.
While I believe their are a lot of bands who produced better stuff in their early days,their are a whole lot I think that did great stuff the more they went along.But I do know what your saying.A lot of fans will generaly despise later albums,especialy if the band has gained commercial success.
Artist and band I believe have release great stuff on later albums
1.Glenn Danzig
2.Filter
3.David Bowie
4.Misfits
5.Interpol
6.RHCP
7.RATM
8.Fear Factory
9.System Of a Down
What you have to remember is that not only is this a subjective debate, but the KIND of subjectivity comes into play.
Lateralus by Tool, for example, meant a LOT to a LOT of people. To me, it's not just an amazing, otherworldly album. It's one of the very few albums that actually influenced the way I live, and look at things. Fortunately, I can separate that, but others sometimes cannot, and anything less will seem...well...lesser.
The common consensus among older Tool fans is that Aenima was their magnum opus and Lateralus was a step down. I don't see that, at all. I think the leap from Aenima to Lateralus was a bigger leap than Lateralus to 10,000 Days, of course. I think there are some moments as creative as any they've done, but like anything, exposure means becoming accustomed, usually.
I actually think System of a Down's last album was their best. I think Zeitgeist by The Smashing Pumpkins is one of the best rock albums ever. It just depends on so many things.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI tend to find earlier works better, although that is not always the case. It does make a lot of sense though as a lot of creativity can go into early albums as a result of circumstance, or youthful exuberance, or what have you. Sometimes bands lose touch with their roots as they gain popularity (Korn springs immediately to mind), or record labels and/or producers get to them. What I find to be the usual case is the band improving over the first few albums while learning to express their creativity and then achieving that and then never being able to reproduce that magnum opus again. This is too often seen as the downfall of a band, but is often misguided as most of these bands continue to release excellent music, but are sadly always compared to their best effort. The fourth thing I tend to see is a band have a few very creative efforts and then continue on the same things perfecting it as they age. I find it rare that a band gets consistently better although I do see bands reimagine and/or rejuvenate themselves every once in a while.
What you have to remember is that not only is this a subjective debate, but the KIND of subjectivity comes into play.Lateralus by Tool, for example, meant a LOT to a LOT of people. To me, it's not just an amazing, otherworldly album. It's one of the very few albums that actually influenced the way I live, and look at things. Fortunately, I can separate that, but others sometimes cannot, and anything less will seem...well...lesser.
The common consensus among older Tool fans is that Aenima was their magnum opus and Lateralus was a step down. I don't see that, at all. I think the leap from Aenima to Lateralus was a bigger leap than Lateralus to 10,000 Days, of course. I think there are some moments as creative as any they've done, but like anything, exposure means becoming accustomed, usually.
I actually think System of a Down's last album was their best. I think Zeitgeist by The Smashing Pumpkins is one of the best rock albums ever. It just depends on so many things.
-AC
I think Tool falls in the perfecting category. I agree with mr. smiley that Tool hasn't been as creative on their last two albums, but I think they have produced a similar product better.
I think Zeitgeist falls into the improving to their magnum opus (Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness beyond a shadow of a doubt imo) and then always being compared to that album. Zeitgeist is very good, but not nearly as good as Mellon Collie imo. Sadly, many people will harp on the band for it which entirely unfair.
And I think SOAD's newest is their worst, it is a case where I simply don't like it. However, I think Toxicity is an excellent release and Serj's Elect the Dead is where I wish they had gone and prevented my utter disappointment at the band members.
to put blatantly, i don't care for Tool's music in general. i understand the art and hidden messages are great appeals that make Tool a truly unique band but, i also feel so much of their music is just so monotonous and droning.
overall, i have a hard time getting into their work.
although the ones (songs) i do enjoy are excellent. however, they are few and far between, imo. i dunno, i try to understand the force behind Tool but i fail miserably.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think Tool falls in the perfecting category. I agree with mr. smiley that Tool hasn't been as creative on their last two albums, but I think they have produced a similar product better.
Not creating an entirely new product doesn't mean that they are not being creative.
10,000 Days by Tool, for example, is a very creative album compared to almost anything, and it baffles me that you'd consider Lateralus as an album that's not creative.
Originally posted by geshien
i try to understand the force behind Tool but i fail miserably.
Precisely.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriThe ideas are not fresh. Tool has always had good variation on their albums and they continued that, and the songs are obviously not rehashed riffs, but the ideas, song structures, techniques, etc. are not really new to their work. Lateralus and 10 000 Days are perfections of their earlier work. 10 000 Days (that or Aenima as I haven't really put too much thought into it) is probably my favourite Tool album, but I definitely don't think it's fresh, they didn't reinvent themselves, nor should they have. They have found a way to express themselves effectively and continued to do that in an acceptable fashion.
Not creating an entirely new product doesn't mean that they are not being creative.10,000 Days by Tool, for example, is a very creative album compared to almost anything, and it baffles me that you'd consider Lateralus as an album that's not creative.
Originally posted by Nellinator
And I think SOAD's newest is their worst, it is a case where I simply don't like it. However, I think Toxicity is an excellent release and Serj's Elect the Dead is where I wish they had gone and prevented my utter disappointment at the band members.
Toxicity was my favorite too.
As for Tool, I have no idea. Never cared much for them. Wouldn't mind getting into them however.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriThat's a horribly erroneous conclusion to make. Your assertion that is based on attention is a false premise. So, either prove your points with facts, or stop fellating them.
You don't even pay enough attention to remember what album is your favourite, and Tool are a band that require attention.There's a connection.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's what people are supposed to say, about ANY band."I like their older stuff.".
If Zeitgeist by The Smashing Pumpkins was by ANY other band, people would be buttering up the CD. Yet, because they did previous works, it got slammed.
-AC
I still think there was an element of that in St Angers failing, it wasn't a rubbish album, it just wasn't Ride The Lightning Vol. 2
Originally posted by Nellinator
That's a horribly erroneous conclusion to make. Your assertion that is based on attention is a false premise. So, either prove your points with facts, or stop fellating them.
I'm not fellating them, I'm stating facts. You said you don't pay much attention, so how can you say that they stopped being creative? Did you not think that you might not be paying attention enough?
I pay attention, and I can see that whilst their development from Lateralus to 10,000 Days wasn't as large as from Undertow to Aenima, or Aenima to Lateralus, they're still a very creative band.
Perhaps not as much, which is what you should have said. They're still a creative band by any standard, just by the sheer amount of bands we could compare them to for creativity.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriYah, you are. When did I say this? I didn't. See the logical fallacy called strawman argument.
I'm not fellating them, I'm stating facts. You said you don't pay much attention, so how can you say that they stopped being creative? Did you not think that you might not be paying attention enough?I pay attention, and I can see that whilst their development from Lateralus to 10,000 Days wasn't as large as from Undertow to Aenima, or Aenima to Lateralus, they're still a very creative band.
Perhaps not as much, which is what you should have said. They're still a creative band by any standard, just by the sheer amount of bands we could compare them to for creativity.
-AC
No, they aren't being creative anymore, they are honing their craft. It is different. So
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yah, you are. When did I say this? I didn't. See the logical fallacy called strawman argument.
No, I'm not. Fact.
When did you say what? That they're not being creative or that you don't pay attention? About a couple of posts back.
Originally posted by Nellinator
No, they aren't being creative anymore, they are honing their craft. It is different. So
Yes, they are.
Innovation and creativity are not inherent.
-AC
Originally posted by Nellinator
(that or Aenima as I haven't really put too much thought into it)
Not putting thought in is more or less not paying attention, the way you say it as if you don't care clearly illustrates your stance with Tool. You obviously like them, but the fact that you cannot see the distinction between the albums suggests you've not put in as much as you need to.
Creativity on the last two albums? I don't know, perhaps you're right, because I've personally seen The Kaiser Chiefs and Arctic Monkeys write songs with melody and drum lines timed in fibonacci sequence, multiple time and tempo changes within a song. Incorporating talkbox guitar solos and other such things.
-AC