Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sure good and evil exists in the animal kingdom. A lion kills a ghazal. For the Lion the act is good, but for the ghazal, the act is evil. Good and evil are relative, not absolute.
?
the gazelle doesn't think it's evil. it just knows nature and flight of fight. it knows to run and outrun. the basics nothing complex like ideology. good and evil doesn't register in animals.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
?the gazelle doesn't think it's evil. it just knows nature and flight of fight. it knows to run and outrun. the basics nothing complex like ideology. good and evil doesn't register in animals.
That is one of the problems with the Christian "good or evil". In Buddhism, one does not have to be aware of the effects of good and evil, to be a peripatetic. As an example, a knife can be in the world of Bodhisattva if held in the hand of a surgeon while saving someone's life (good). Or it can be in hell, if used to murder (evil). However, sense Bodhisattva is in hell, and hell is in Bodhisattva, then murdering a mass murderer before he kills could be in the world of Bodhisattva (good). There are ten worlds and each has a relative aspect of good and evil.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is one of the problems with the Christian "good or evil". In Buddhism, one does not have to be aware of the effects of good and evil, to be a peripatetic. As an example, a knife can be in the world of Bodhisattva if held in the hand of a surgeon while saving someone's life (good). Or it can be in hell, if used to murder (evil). However, sense Bodhisattva is in hell, and hell is in Bodhisattva, then murdering a mass murderer before he kills could be in the world of Bodhisattva (good). There are ten worlds and each has a relative aspect of good and evil.
if that's what you believe then that's fine. my original point though was that the animal kingdom doesn't know good or evil. it just know survival and instinct.
for something is to be percieved as evil then said act itself has to be evil. with that, if prey do know good and evil then they cannot call what the predator is doing, as evil because hunting is not evil becaues hunting is natural and there is no evil in nature or good for that matter.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
if that's what you believe then that's fine. my original point though was that the animal kingdom doesn't know good or evil. it just know survival and instinct.for something is to be percieved as evil then said act itself has to be evil. with that, if prey do know good and evil then they cannot call what the predator is doing, as evil because hunting is not evil becaues hunting is natural and there is no evil in nature or good for that matter.
No! Humans are part of the animal kingdom. This is where the western thinking gets really stupid. Humans are animals. Whatever you say about good and evil must apply to all things or you might as well be riding on the back of a unicorn.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No! Humans are part of the animal kingdom. This is where the western thinking gets really stupid. Humans are animals. Whatever you say about good and evil must apply to all things or you might as well be riding on the back of a unicorn.
never said they weren't but ideologies like good and evil aren't apart of nature. if so those concepts would be universal amoung all living things. but it's not. like for example what may be considered good here might be considered evil in the middle east...
i'm telling you that good and evil aren't constructs of nature. they are artificial.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sure good and evil exists in the animal kingdom. A lion kills a ghazal. For the Lion the act is good, but for the ghazal, the act is evil. Good and evil are relative, not absolute.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison...if the gazelle is unaware of evil, and 'good and evil are relative,' then by whos standard is the act evil?
That is one of the problems with the Christian "good or evil". In Buddhism, one does not have to be aware of the effects of good and evil, to be a peripatetic. As an example, a knife can be in the world of Bodhisattva if held in the hand of a surgeon while saving someone's life (good). Or it can be in hell, if used to murder (evil). However, sense Bodhisattva is in hell, and hell is in Bodhisattva, then murdering a mass murderer before he kills could be in the world of Bodhisattva (good). There are ten worlds and each has a relative aspect of good and evil.
Originally posted by red g jacks
...if the gazelle is unaware of evil, and 'good and evil are relative,' then by whos standard is the act evil?
You don't have to be aware. Even objects manifest the ten worlds. An object could be good or evil, depending on its environment.
You ask whose standard. It is relative. The answer to the question is different for each person (or gazelle & lion, in this case).
The gazelle wants to live, and being killed by the lion would be evil, to the gazelle. However, not eating the gazelle is evil to the Lion.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
never said they weren't but ideologies like good and evil aren't apart of nature. if so those concepts would be universal amoung all living things. but it's not. like for example what may be considered good here might be considered evil in the middle east...i'm telling you that good and evil aren't constructs of nature. they are artificial.
No. I used to think that too. It is the absoluteness of the traditional western thinking that is a construction of man.
Of course, what is good here maybe evil somewhere else, that is the nature of something that is relative.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No. I used to think that too. It is the absoluteness of the traditional western thinking that is a construction of man.Of course, what is good here maybe evil somewhere else, that is the nature of something that is relative.
yeah we're gonna just have agree to disagree.
Originally posted by Shakyamunisoni can't seem to make sense of this tbh. first you say that you don't have to be aware for something to be evil. and then you say that for the gazelle, being killed by the lion would be evil since evil is relative and based on perspective. but if the gazelle isn't aware of evil and doesn't think in those terms then how can any act be evil based on the gazelle's pov. and if it's not based on the gazelle's pov then it seems like some other standard for discerning evil is being employed.
You don't have to be aware. Even objects manifest the ten worlds. An object could be good or evil, depending on its environment.You ask whose standard. It is relative. The answer to the question is different for each person (or gazelle & lion, in this case).
The gazelle wants to live, and being killed by the lion would be evil, to the gazelle. However, not eating the gazelle is evil to the Lion.
Originally posted by red g jacks
i can't seem to make sense of this tbh. first you say that you don't have to be aware for something to be evil. and then you say that for the gazelle, being killed by the lion would be evil since evil is relative and based on perspective. but if the gazelle isn't aware of evil and doesn't think in those terms then how can any act be evil based on the gazelle's pov. and if it's not based on the gazelle's pov then it seems like some other standard for discerning evil is being employed.
A person is nether good or evil. Good and evil are actions. Rather an action can be seen as being good or evil, depends on POV. It also depends on the world each person or thing is in. I will give you a list.
“Buddhism identifies Ten Worlds--ten states or conditions of life that we experience within our lives, moving from one to another at any moment according to our interactions with our environment and those around us. Each of us possesses the potential to experience all ten, from the prison-like despair and self-hatred of Hell to the expansive joy and wisdom of Buddhahood…”
“Hell: A state of suffering and despair in which we perceive we have no freedom of action. It is characterized by the impulse to destroy ourselves and everything around us.
Hunger: The state of being controlled by insatiable desire for money, power, status etc. While desires are inherent in any of the Ten Worlds, in this state we are at the mercy of our cravings and cannot control them.
Animality: In this state, we are ruled by instinct with neither reason nor moral sense nor the ability to make long-range judgments. We operate by the law of the jungle and will not hesitate to take advantage of those weaker than ourselves and fawn on those who are stronger.
Anger: Here, awareness of ego emerges, but it is a selfish, greedy, distorted ego, determined to best others at all costs and seeing everything as a potential threat to itself. In this state we value only ourselves and tend to hold others in contempt.
Humanity (also called Tranquility): This is a flat, passive state of life, from which we can easily shift into the lower four worlds. While we may generally behave in a humane fashion in this state, we are highly vulnerable to strong external influences.
Heaven (or Rapture): This is a state of intense joy stemming, for example, from the fulfillment of some desire, a sense of physical well-being, or inner contentment. Though intense, the joy experienced in this state is short-lived and also vulnerable to external influences.
Learning: In this state, we seek the truth through studying the teachings or experience of others.
Realization: In this state we seek the truth not through others' teachings but through our own direct perception of the world.
Bodhisattva: Bodhisattvas are those who aspire to achieve enlightenment and at the same time are equally determined to enable all other beings to do the same. Conscious of the bonds that link us to all others, in this state we realize that any happiness we alone enjoy is incomplete, and we devote ourselves to alleviating others' suffering. Those in this state find their greatest satisfaction in altruistic behavior.
Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, we can resolve harmoniously what appear from the standpoint of the nine worlds to be insoluble contradictions. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a true self, perfect freedom from karmic bonds throughout eternity, a life purified of illusion, and absolute happiness.”
http://www.sgi.org/resource-center/introductory-materials/ten-worlds.html