Darth Vader vs. Yoda

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This fun website demonstrates the dubiousness of the transitive rule for victories - in college sports, at least.

And you can see how common it is for teams to occasionally beat higher-tiered teams. And thus we can 'prove' that the merchant marine football team is better than national champions Ohio State.

I will also note that how you ask "who's better" determines the result. You can also easily show,that Ohio State is better than the Merchant Marines. That's why debates about who is best are endless.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which is why what you wrote here makes no sense:

You admit above that Obi bested Anakin but couldn't compete with Dooku because he knows Anakin inside out. And yet here you use Yoda saying Kenobi can't compete with someone as some sort of proof that Anakin can't 😬

Well not that we've ever seen a Saber match up between Dooku and Sidious, but no I don't believe Dooku would win that. Doesn't mean Dooku can't match Windu.

I've proven, and you've admitted A>B>C means A>C doesn't work that smoothly in SW.

If it did, Windu would have stomped Maul without blinking when he engaged him in the Disney Canon (based on TCW unfinished S6 episodes) Son of Dathmir comic.

Windu also would have baterred Mother Talzin when he fought her in a finished S6 episode.

No one's disputing that Windu is clearly > Kenobi. But your example of why Mace is better is a terrible one.

Not really. Yoda fought Palpatine out in the open where Palpatine could use his environment and Force Powers to their full effect. Yoda also didn't begin the fight with help from 3 other Jedi.

Context/Environments/Circumstances is everything in Jedi/Sith fights.

Yoda is simply more Powerful than Mace. Yoda can casually freeze Ventress, and matches Palpatine's force powers. Palpatine chucks Maul and Opress around with ease.

Yet Windu has to be serious effort in to defeat Maul 😬

You do the math.

That is how it works in life in all phases.

It shows anakin was better than obi for the most part but in the same league and arrogant enough to lose to Obi. It all makes sense.

Post the evidence here so I can illuminate you. Windu is superior to maul and talzin.

No, it isn't.

Windu didn't get any help from the other Jedi in determining the outcome. They were long dead. Yoga also was ko'd while Palpatine didn't capitalize on his vulnerability allowing him time to recover.

I do agree environments matter but yoda can move as well and allowing Palpatine the higher ground was a tactical error on his end. This was the error that cost him the fight once he did reestablish ground with him on the pod. Palpatine needed effort to beat maul as well. Windu beat the guy who beat maul. Windu is better than them both and Palpatine taught maul so he has a bigger advantage due to familiarity.

Being more powerful doesn't mean you are more formidable. That's a myth and one in which I won't help perpetuate.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Post the evidence here so I can illuminate you. Windu is superior to maul and talzin.

He seems pretty equal to Talzin:

?v=y207JIwQXcw

And he clearly requires effort to defeat Maul as well:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=darth+maul+vs+mace+windu&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1440&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=H6WIVZaVOYOPU9XfnfgG&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#imgrc=eBzIMiYf7Qh6OM%253A%3B4xxRqJ5ORQBo-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic.comicvine.com%252Fuploads%252Fignore_jpg_scale_super%252F11113%252F111137054%252F3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.comicvine.com%252Fforums%252Fbattles-7%252Fdarth-maul-vs-count-dooku-1523888%252F%3B711%3B347

^ That's all Disney Canon AND Lucas Canon.. The comic book was adapted from unfinished episodes of TCW.

I'll concede Windu maybe slightly superior to Dooku and Anakin (maybe). But Anakin would give him hell in a fight. And I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku could stalemate him with his elegant style, and vast skill set.

But Windu's definitely not as powerful in the Force as Sidious or Yoda. He clearly can't toss Maul around like Sidious can. And probably wouldn't be able to freeze Ventress like Yoda did.

I'd rank Windu and Talzin as the next most powerful beings (outside the ones/Force Wielders) after Yoda and Sidious in the Prequel era. And I'd rank Anakin and Dooku right behind Windu and Talzin.

Yoda has a broken spirit after the fall of the jedi so I'm going with vader....not to mention he's gone completely insane

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He seems pretty equal to Talzin:

?v=y207JIwQXcw

And he clearly requires effort to defeat Maul as well:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=darth+maul+vs+mace+windu&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1440&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=H6WIVZaVOYOPU9XfnfgG&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#imgrc=eBzIMiYf7Qh6OM%253A%3B4xxRqJ5ORQBo-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic.comicvine.com%252Fuploads%252Fignore_jpg_scale_super%252F11113%252F111137054%252F3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.comicvine.com%252Fforums%252Fbattles-7%252Fdarth-maul-vs-count-dooku-1523888%252F%3B711%3B347

^ That's all Disney Canon AND Lucas Canon.. The comic book was adapted from unfinished episodes of TCW.

I'll concede Windu maybe slightly superior to Dooku and Anakin (maybe). But Anakin would give him hell in a fight. And I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku could stalemate him with his elegant style, and vast skill set.

But Windu's definitely not as powerful in the Force as Sidious or Yoda. He clearly can't toss Maul around like Sidious can. And probably wouldn't be able to freeze Ventress like Yoda did.

I'd rank Windu and Talzin as the next most powerful beings (outside the ones/Force Wielders) after Yoda and Sidious in the Prequel era. And I'd rank Anakin and Dooku right behind Windu and Talzin.

Windu would beat them all. Saying he wouldn't is ignoring the fact no one legit beat Windu ever. Kenobi bested Anakin and Dooku got crushed by Anakin.

It usually always comes down to the skill with the light saber. Windu proved he was good enough to deflect the lightning right back into Sheev's face.

Talzin seems at the top with Sheev's second in terms of power. This isn't ranking formidability.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I completely disagree. Yoda in the midst of battle reacts to the pods being tossed his way by Palpatine and handles it fine. He is about as quick with his force powers if not quicker than Vader. For all Vaders potential he failed to live up to it. Yoda is far more agile in combat than Vader is. Yoda wins.

He reacts to the pods so what? He wasn't fighting the pods. We see yoda isn't a fast guy when using the force most of the time. Also he isn't a very creative fighter. While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins. Also Vaders force power is much more combative applicable due to being in the field for,20 years while yoda had been out of practice for some centuries. While I admit yoda isn't in cable and can go toe to toe with the best of the best and is one of the best of the best, if we look at how Anakin is ranked, we see he is ranked as on level with Sidious and yoda. In my opinion Vader is better than Anakin so could actually successfully defeat yoda however he is defiantly going to lose an arm and si going to need to relax for a while because this is a battle he is going to fight for. However in the end I would have to say Darth Vader.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He reacts to the pods so what? He wasn't fighting the pods. We see yoda isn't a fast guy when using the force most of the time. Also he isn't a very creative fighter. While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins. Also Vaders force power is much more combative applicable due to being in the field for,20 years while yoda had been out of practice for some centuries. While I admit yoda isn't in cable and can go toe to toe with the best of the best and is one of the best of the best, if we look at how Anakin is ranked, we see he is ranked as on level with Sidious and yoda. In my opinion Vader is better than Anakin so could actually successfully defeat yoda however he is defiantly going to lose an arm and si going to need to relax for a while because this is a battle he is going to fight for. However in the end I would have to say Darth Vader.

Vader was wiser but also slower.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins.

No way Vader stands a chance against Yoda.

He crushes Khan though with complete ease.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Luke decimated Vader and he was in no way comparable to Yoda in Rotj.

Vader was going easy on his kiddo.

Vader may be comparable to Yoda with his TK. He's also likely a superior pilot to Yoda. So Vader loses a Saber fight to Yoda for sure, but saying he's "in no way comparable to Yoda" is not true. He is in some aspects.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was reacting as they were sent at him quickly. No, Yoda had greater force powers, great maneuverability, and greater saber skills. He wins this hands down. Luke decimated Vader and he was in no way comparable to Yoda in Rotj.

Vader was wiser but also slower.

Ok so we know he has reaction speed. Ok I would hope so. Doesn't translate to a win. Yoda has greater practical knowledge of the force and has demonstrated some pretty big power, however he has been out of practice for centuries while Vader has been refining his skill and becoming more powerful in the force using it combatively. Also in terms of sabers I'd say Vader can take yoda due to the fact that Anakin was stated to be on yoda and Sidious level as duelist by ROTS and I believe he only improved after that. So yes I bel dive there is a strong case for Vader being able to contend with windu. Dooku was able to do it and not die, so I don't see why Vader can't. In terms of the force Vader is much more destructive and more in practice. While I agree that yoda has more experience and wisdom surrounding the force his skills are more lauded back due to him needing the time to concentrate his energies to do the God like things we expect. Vader however doesn't need that as seen he can do force powers with in an instant. I believe Vader wasn't really trying in that fight so him getting beat by Luke doesn't really say that Vader lacks in any skill.m

Vader has succesfully beaten faster opponents. Just because you have faster speed doesn't always mean you're going to win. I agree Vader is more tactically inclined than yoda in term of one on one combat.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok so we know he has reaction speed. Ok I would hope so. Doesn't translate to a win. Yoda has greater practical knowledge of the force and has demonstrated some pretty big power, however he has been out of practice for centuries while Vader has been refining his skill and becoming more powerful in the force using it combatively. Also in terms of sabers I'd say Vader can take yoda due to the fact that Anakin was stated to be on yoda and Sidious level as duelist by ROTS and I believe he only improved after that. So yes I bel dive there is a strong case for Vader being able to contend with windu. Dooku was able to do it and not die, so I don't see why Vader can't. In terms of the force Vader is much more destructive and more in practice. While I agree that yoda has more experience and wisdom surrounding the force his skills are more lauded back due to him needing the time to concentrate his energies to do the God like things we expect. Vader however doesn't need that as seen he can do force powers with in an instant. I believe Vader wasn't really trying in that fight so him getting beat by Luke doesn't really say that Vader lacks in any skill.m

Vader has succesfully beaten faster opponents. Just because you have faster speed doesn't always mean you're going to win. I agree Vader is more tactically inclined than yoda in term of one on one combat.

Vader has never beaten someone of Yoda's power, skill, and quickness. Vader loses, badly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What makes you say Yoda has been out of practice ? This is simply untrue. Anakin would become more powerful but had not. Obi was not sent to kill Sheev because he wasn't as powerful but was more than up for the job of taking down Anakin. You have no proof to suggest why he didn't try and just make things up yet again.

Vader has never beaten someone of Yoda's power, skill, and quickness. Vader loses, badly.

Ok the fact that before the clone wars yoda hasn't just been in the field. He's the grandmaster and has taken the role of the arm chair Jedi. He had windu, dooku, Anakin, obi wan, and so many lower Jedi to do all the work for him. Before the war he really hadn't been doing anything because there wasn't anything to do and if there were it was with local bounty hunters and thugs and that a matter of local police and many other Jedi to handle. Also the 20+ years gap that yoda hadn't been practice when palatine was in control. Also yoda was getting older and Lucas states that yoda had to find the necessary strength to fight dooku due to his age. So while he sint just some weak old frog man he is still very old. The entire middle is unimportant and irrelevant. Obi really would have lost if Anakin was more tactically inclined in that battle. Actually I do. It's his son so he doesn't want to kill him. While he would be willing to if it came down to it he doesn't want to. Also we have seen vader fight, there is a big difference between vader as of ESB and ROTJ in terms of how they fought.

So? Anakin has never beaten anyone on Palptines level or yodas level yet he can contend with them apin sabers as stayed by the nick guillard in the ROTS commentary. If you wish to find it watch it with all the actors commentaries and he wil, state it. I also knew where to find that so you can see it if you like. So whoever wins, they are going to be limping home, and need immediate medical treatment.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok the fact that before the clone wars yoda hasn't just been in the field. He's the grandmaster and has taken the role of the arm chair Jedi. He had windu, dooku, Anakin, obi wan, and so many lower Jedi to do all the work for him. Before the war he really hadn't been doing anything because there wasn't anything to do and if there were it was with local bounty hunters and thugs and that a matter of local police and many other Jedi to handle. Also the 20+ years gap that yoda hadn't been practice when palatine was in control. Also yoda was getting older and Lucas states that yoda had to find the necessary strength to fight dooku due to his age. So while he sint just some weak old frog man he is still very old. The entire middle is unimportant and irrelevant. Obi really would have lost if Anakin was more tactically inclined in that battle. Actually I do. It's his son so he doesn't want to kill him. While he would be willing to if it came down to it he doesn't want to. Also we have seen vader fight, there is a big difference between vader as of ESB and ROTJ in terms of how they fought.

So? Anakin has never beaten anyone on Palptines level or yodas level yet he can contend with them apin sabers as stayed by the nick guillard in the ROTS commentary. If you wish to find it watch it with all the actors commentaries and he wil, state it. I also knew where to find that so you can see it if you like. So whoever wins, they are going to be limping home, and need immediate medical treatment.

Evidence talks not people's opinions. He could compete just not win. Yoda wins, 10/10.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who cares ? He performed pretty well against Sheev. Meanwhile Vader lost to Kenobi. Yoda is quicker, more powerful, and more elusive than Vader. He has the advantages. Vader doesn't.

Evidence talks not people's opinions. He could compete just not win. Yoda wins, 10/10.

Being out of practice mattes. If yoda would have been more in practice he most lily would have beaten sheev possibly. He can perform well doesn't mean he ain't out of practice. Vader as of the one we are talking about is better and smarter than that one. Again due to a tactical failure. Yoda is quicker, but vase has taken on faster opponents than himself and has been described as faster than thought. More powerful doesn't mean he wins not win vader has better ways to apply his force powers in terms of combative capabilities. Again vader can match that. Also, dooku was able to hold off yoda and cause yoda to en tired once it was all down and over. Vader is canonically proven to be better than dooku so yes vader can and I believe will take saber. Also vader would have knowledge of yodas style due to being able to observe him as a padawn while yoda would be working with outdated information of a pure form V specialist.

Well with going by evidence, yodas style works against him. Since vader has greater durability than yoda, and yodas style is to exhaustive, vader stands an even greater chance of winning due to yoda just going to go all out while vader has the skill and durability to hold off yoda when he tires. Also he's physically better due to his suit with the exception of speed and agility. So whoever wins its not going to be a 10/10 win.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Being out of practice mattes. If yoda would have been more in practice he most lily would have beaten sheev possibly. He can perform well doesn't mean he ain't out of practice. Vader as of the one we are talking about is better and smarter than that one. Again due to a tactical failure. Yoda is quicker, but vase has taken on faster opponents than himself and has been described as faster than thought. More powerful doesn't mean he wins not win vader has better ways to apply his force powers in terms of combative capabilities. Again vader can match that. Also, dooku was able to hold off yoda and cause yoda to en tired once it was all down and over. Vader is canonically proven to be better than dooku so yes vader can and I believe will take saber. Also vader would have knowledge of yodas style due to being able to observe him as a padawn while yoda would be working with outdated information of a pure form V specialist.

Well with going by evidence, yodas style works against him. Since vader has greater durability than yoda, and yodas style is to exhaustive, vader stands an even greater chance of winning due to yoda just going to go all out while vader has the skill and durability to hold off yoda when he tires. Also he's physically better due to his suit with the exception of speed and agility. So whoever wins its not going to be a 10/10 win.

False. Yoda cuts him up easily. Too fast and too powerful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We see he isn't faster than thought. That's hyperbolic. He got crushed by Luke and Ypda wins due to the advantages I have given.

False. Yoda cuts him up easily. Too fast and too powerful.

Or coughexpamdeduniversecough. So you think that Sidious moving in and out of existence is hyperbolic. Luke's battle with him is debatable as most fans believe vader was holding back. Also if vader used the force he would have won due to Luke not being that powerful yet. So ignore all of vaders advantages?

So this proves you don't know anything about the styles. Yoda didn't beat Dooku. Dooku could keep up, and power didn't seem to be a problem for him. Vader is canonically stated to be more powerful and demonstrates more power than Dooku.

Dooku is a peer of Mace, the fight could go either way based on the environment but on average Mace holds an advantage because his power can break through Dooku's elegant form.

Dooku is closer to Mace than Mace is to Yoda. There, I said it.

Originally posted by Bentley

Dooku is closer to Mace than Mace is to Yoda.

👆

Vader off course...

Vader's off course?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Or coughexpamdeduniversecough. So you think that Sidious moving in and out of existence is hyperbolic. Luke's battle with him is debatable as most fans believe vader was holding back. Also if vader used the force he would have won due to Luke not being that powerful yet. So ignore all of vaders advantages?

So this proves you don't know anything about the styles. Yoda didn't beat Dooku. Dooku could keep up, and power didn't seem to be a problem for him. Vader is canonically stated to be more powerful and demonstrates more power than Dooku.

Dooku fled. So ?