Numbers

well like posted a bit earlier...its probably a hidden form of symbolism. its more likely symbolism then OCD. because he is a writer and many writes do use symbolism in there work.

You're right, symbolism, yes. But I still want to know what they symbolize. 😛 This will haunt me for days til I either get some answers or forget about it. 😄

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, you already posted what they symbolize. Thanks for that again. 🙂

well I would try and help you, but I never read the books just saw the first two movies (I didnt see ROTK yet). but if you have any questions on symbolism or anything like that I will be glad to help.

Originally posted by shadowy_blue
You're right, symbolism, yes. But I still want to know what they symbolize. 😛 This will haunt me for days til I either get some answers or forget about it. 😄

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, you already posted what they symbolize. Thanks for that again. 🙂

no, problem. 🙂 😛

whhhaaatttt!?!?!! You haven't seen ROTK yet!? 😒:

LOL...just kidding...😛

Watch it as soon as you can...this may not be your first time hearing this but it's a really amazing and wonderful movie to the nth degree. 😄

okay,....I will try to see as soon as possible. I wanted to watch it over christmas brake but my freind wanted to see peter pan instead. 🙄

ha ha ha ha ha ha good thread, I never thought about it, thats a good point.

Originally posted by shadowy_blue
I was wondering..what's up with Tolkien and his numbers? Especially 3, 7 and 9

For the number 3:

When the Fellowship split up,it was like this:
Frodo,Sam,Sméagol
Aragorn,Legolas,Gimli
Merry,Pippin,Treebeard

Another things with number 3:
3 groups of Elves went to Aman; The Noldor, The Vanyar, and The Teleri
There are 3 Houses of the Edain
There were 3 Silmarils
3 ''people'' took the Ring to Mordor

For 7:

There was the White Tree of Gondor with 7 flowers
There was the 7 Stars that were the emblem of Elendil and his heirs
There are 7 palantiri (the 8th is in the Tower of Avallónë)
There also 7 forefathers of the Dwarves.
7 sons of Fëanor
Seven Rivers of Ossiriand

There are many especially of the number 9:

9 Nazgûls
9 members of the Fellowship
Frodo ends up with 9 fingers
Sauron had 9 fingers
is it maybe...like Nazgûls X Fellowship,Frodo X Sauron?

There's also a thing about 14. 14 Valar, minus Melkor and 14 companions in "The Hobbit", but I think those are just two references to number 14 so it's not that important.

Combinations:

3 rings to the Elves
7 to the Dwarves
9 to the Kings of Men

"Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."

Not only was the number 3 mentioned but 3 times 3 is equal to 9. The number 7 is also mentioned and if you added the 7 stones and 7 stars, there are 14.

They may be more, and I don't think that this is just coincidence, the number 3, 7 and 9 may have a significant role in Tolkien's life. Anybody know what these "special" numbers mean. 😄

Discos - perhaps we should all go over to the "most clever award" and have a vote,

it is a good point, perhaps on deciding how much numbers each "thing" was going to have he would pick numbers out of a hat and it seemed to be 3,7 & 9 alot.....

or maybe it was just coincidence lol? 😄

another good point

no I believe it is hidden symbolism many writes use it.

Originally posted by shadowy_blue
I was wondering..what's up with Tolkien and his numbers? Especially 3, 7 and 9

For the number 3:

When the Fellowship split up,it was like this:
Frodo,Sam,Sméagol
Aragorn,Legolas,Gimli
Merry,Pippin,Treebeard

Another things with number 3:
3 groups of Elves went to Aman; The Noldor, The Vanyar, and The Teleri
There are 3 Houses of the Edain
There were 3 Silmarils
3 ''people'' took the Ring to Mordor

For 7:

There was the White Tree of Gondor with 7 flowers
There was the 7 Stars that were the emblem of Elendil and his heirs
There are 7 palantiri (the 8th is in the Tower of Avallónë)
There also 7 forefathers of the Dwarves.
7 sons of Fëanor
Seven Rivers of Ossiriand

There are many especially of the number 9:

9 Nazgûls
9 members of the Fellowship
Frodo ends up with 9 fingers
Sauron had 9 fingers
is it maybe...like Nazgûls X Fellowship,Frodo X Sauron?

There's also a thing about 14. 14 Valar, minus Melkor and 14 companions in "The Hobbit", but I think those are just two references to number 14 so it's not that important.

Combinations:

3 rings to the Elves
7 to the Dwarves
9 to the Kings of Men

"Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."

Not only was the number 3 mentioned but 3 times 3 is equal to 9. The number 7 is also mentioned and if you added the 7 stones and 7 stars, there are 14.

They may be more, and I don't think that this is just coincidence, the number 3, 7 and 9 may have a significant role in Tolkien's life. Anybody know what these "special" numbers mean. 😄

well it seems to me that maybe the numbers co-inside with the charecters. because the nine means complete and to me the way shadowy_blue discribed the charecters for nine it makes sense that is complete. and for the number seven, shadowy_blue said that there was seven stones and seven stars. well the number seven often represents (in greek mythology) that the earth was made in seven days, and the first seven planets. If this confueses any one look back at page one and I have the meanings of the numbers.....maybe one of you can figure some thing out 🙂

3 and 9 occur quite often as theyre important numbers in the duodecimal system (based on 12 while our decimal system is based on 10) that is always present in Tolkiens works as its far more natural than the decimal system somehow / you also often have the words dozen and gross as parts in this system, and practically all the calendaries in middleearth are based on it.

Hmmmmmm. oh, I got an idea....I will be right back!

okay I found some other number translations, most are the same as what I posted earlier .....but okay here they are.

THREE~
Three signifies life, vitality, inner strength, completion, imagination, creativity, energy, and self-exploration. Three stands for trilogy as in the past, present, and future or father, mother, and child, etc

SEVEN~
Seven signifies mental perfection, healing, completion, music and attainment of high spirituality. Additionally, you are unique and eccentric.

NINE~
Nine denotes completion and that you are on a productive path. Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world.

TWELVE~
Twelve denotes spiritual strength and divine perfection

Interestingly twelve also occurs in earlier versions of the ringverse:

Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die,
Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of Stone,
Three for the Elven-kings under the sky,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.

and later

Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star,
Seven for the Dwarf-Lord in their halls of stone,
Three for Mortal Men that wander far
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.

Three - what you said is exactly how elves are

and Nine "Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world" - lol interesting, rebirth for nazgul 😄

hmmmm, now I gonna wonder about this until I find an answer.....

twelve, could mean about the strenght,...but man is far from perfect. I never read the books. maybe I should that way I could figure this out.

I will go see what the number one represents maybe that is another clue 😛

I will back

maybe he just wanted to be like the bible lol

the number FORTY in the bilble is like......never off the pages

😄

About numbers in the bible (and elsewhere):

http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp32.htm
http://www.anycities.com/hilltop/chap2s.htm
http://www.endtime.org/library/articles/symbolism.html
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/gl/GL5.html
http://www.greatdreams.com/nine/nine.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Numbers.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/17Scanastro/07Scanas.htm

3 = the number of steps in the process of simple synthetic integration, and the number of explicit elements;

7 = the symbol of logical systemization on a higher level, as a dynamic
process involving self-renewal and transformation (= 3+4);

9 = the number of steps (and elements) in the operation of second level synthetic integration;

12 = the perfection of logical systemization on the level of a single system (3.4).