Kobe is just Kobe, not MJ, not DrJ, not Jam Master Jay. Jordan did make his teammates better, but that was much later in his career. Plus he had great spot up shooters like Paxon and Kerr to pass to. He also had Pippen who is a pretty good option if you're gonna give the ball up, Grant has a very solid PF to so MJ didnt mind giving him the ball because he knew Grant would score.
Kobe will probably never reach MJ's heights, MJ was never as hated as Kobe is either so even if Kobe did it wouldnt be acknowledged anyway.
To be fair though, Kobe chased away the best player he'll ever play with. So even though MJ had good players around him, he could at least co-exist with them unlike Kobe. Kobe seems to be only about Kobe.
He is the best one on one player in the game right now, but basketball is a team game. Somebody whisper that to Kobe.
Come on man you have to believe that the Shaq Kobe divorce was as much about Shaq as it was about Kobe. Shaqs ego is just as big as Kobe's and when Shaq didnt get his huge contract extension (130 Mill) that he demanded while he still had 2 yrs left on his current one, Jerry Buss traded him. Its no secret that Shaq and Kobe didnt get along but to say Kobe chased him away sounds too BSPN for me. The Lakers organisation went with the younger star rather than be handicapped with Shaqs humongous salary when he is old, out of shape and injured all the time (as the Heat will find out in the next few years). If Shaq and Kobe's age (and work ethic) was reversed they would have traded Kobe, its just smart business.
That sounds like something a Laker fan would say. I myself, am not naive. They can say the "right thing", but if you followed the situation as many of us had, you know Kobe had a huge part in Shaq leaving. The whole threatening to leave business... so you're telling me he did that because he was really interested in becoming a Clipper? Or better yet, a Denver Nugget? I find that very hard to believe. I believe they both were trying to pull their weight, and obviously Kobe won.
Kobe is awesome, but just for the record: Wade > Kobe
Just wanted to throw that out there 😈
Naive i am not, thats kinda what i was trying to say about "Kobe chasing Shaq away". I have done alot of reading about this because at first i was mad at Kobe for the same reasons you listed, but the more i read from different sources the more i realised that there was more to it than what was being reported.
Sure Kobe explored his options as a free agent, maybe because he wanted out, maybe because he wanted to drive his stock up and get more money only he knows that. But i refuse to give Shaq a free pass on this, he doesnt deserve one and he was as much to do with the break up as Kobe.
Also for the record i truly believe that MJ is the GOAT, no question. But Jordan had plenty of bust ups with his teammates as well, the only difference is that everyone knew he was the man so they STFU and play ball. With Shaq and Kobe you had 2 dominant players who couldnt except the other one being the main guy, you could make a case that it had to be Shaqs team because he was the guy the offense ran through and the anchor of the defense, but Kobe at this stage of his career was becoming just as important as Shaq was to the Lakers success. He was the go to guy, their best defender and hardest worker. So it really was a power struggle that Jordan never had to deal with, Pippen knew he was #2 and was pleased to be in that role (even when MJ came back from retirement).
Dont get me wrong im pissed that Shaq left, even though they hated each other Shaq and Kobe were a deadly tandem. But to blame it solely on Kobe is in my view equally as naive as you claim im being.
Wade is great but until he has some rings its Kobe>Wade. 😈
When did I say all the blame was on Kobe? I'm not giving Shaq a free pass at all. He was trying to pull his weight too. And it was a good financial move for the Lakers, there's no doubt there. My point was that he (kobe) can't handle playing with another superstar. They were both trying to get rid of the other most likely, but Kobe got his way in the end. I was just trying to say he's selfish. Not that he's selfish and Shaq isn't. Shaq is too, but I wasn't talking about Shaq.
and Wade will be better than Kobe barring any major injury and as long as Shaq can stay healthy, he'll get a ring or two. Even w/o Shaq. And I'm not even a Wade fan. Just a fan of his game. He does more right now all around than Kobe does (in his prime I might add). Kobe just takes shot after shot. Not hatin though, I love Kobe's individual game. It's fun to watch, but not good for team basketball.
WTF is wrong with you guys, (excuse my cursing), let me break it down for you Kobe fans.
Opening Statement: There will never be another Michael Jordan, to quote Larry Bird, LARRY BIRD, LEGENDARY STATUS AND ON OF THE BEST IN HIS TIME, "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."
To quote fellow Bulls player John Paxson "Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.
THE BREAKDOWN
It's easy to draw comparisons when Bryant hits a three-pointer with 2.1 seconds left in regulation to force overtime as he did against the Pistons in Game 2. It's convenient to make comparisons to Jordan when Bryant scores 42 points against the San Antonio Spurs in a playoff game.
But comparisons to Jordan inconspicuously disappear when Bryant goes 8-for-25 from the field with just two assists (just one to Shaquille O'Neal) and zero rebounds in Game 4, and when Bryant shoots 4 of 13 from the field with four turnovers in Game 3 of the NBA Finals.
Jordan had bad games in the playoffs, in the regular season, even in the NBA Finals. But at day's end, Jordan's NBA Finals numbers are much more impressive than Bryant's. Keep in mind that Jordan never had an O'Neal with which to share points. Scottie Pippen does not qualify. Conversely, Jordan didn't have an O'Neal to help keep multiple defenders off him.
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.
In 19 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.
Numbers do not do the comparison justice. What's far more impressive is Jordan's will to win titles. Bryant has a will to win. It just doesn't equal Jordan's. Not even close. The proof is in what each player will do to ensure a championship. Bryant has played in about half the Finals games that Jordan did, but Jordan's highlights stand out much more than Bryant's. There are distinct Jordan moments from each of the Bulls' six NBA titles.
• In 1991, Jordan forced overtime against the Lakers in Game 3 with 3.4 seconds left.
• In 1992, Jordan hit six three-pointers in the first half against Portland in Game 1. He scored 35 points in the first and second quarters.
• In 1993, Jordan cut Phoenix's lead to 98-96 with less than 40 seconds to play. Before John Paxson hit the winning three-pointer, three Bulls, including Jordan, touched the ball.
• In 1997, Jordan hit the winning shot at the buzzer in Game 1 against Utah.
• In '97, Jordan scored 38 points in Game 5 while suffering from food poisoning and flu-like symptoms.
• In '97, Steve Kerr hit the winning shot on an assist from Jordan in Game 6.
• In 1998, Jordan made a jumper with 5.2 seconds left to give the Bulls an 87-86 lead in Game 6. It also gave the Bulls their sixth title of the '90s.
What distinct Bryant memories stand out?
• Bryant forced overtime with a three-pointer vs. the Pistons in Game 2.
• In 2000, Bryant, with a bum ankle, scored 28 points, including eight in OT, in the Lakers' 120-118 Game 4 victory against Indiana.
• In 2001, Bryant had a near triple-double with 19 points, 10 rebounds and nine assists in the Lakers' 100-86 Game 4 victory vs. Philadelphia.
• In '01, Bryant scored 31 points in Game 2 and 32 points in Game 3 vs. the Sixers. (An aside: Bryant has just four 30-point games in the Finals. Jordan averaged more than 30, including a 41-point average against the Suns in '93.
There might be a few more moments, a few stellar shots from Bryant's NBA Finals career that a hardcore Lakers fan might recall. But not many more. And certainly none that rival Jordan's collection.
While Bryant is still young, he has never been Finals MVP in Los Angeles' three titles in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Those trophies belong to O'Neal. It was the pattern for those three titles. O'Neal was the man, not Bryant.
Jordan was the MVP of all six Bulls' title teams. And remember, Jordan played against much tougher competition. Charles Barkley's Suns, Karl Malone's Jazz, Clyde Drexler's Trail Blazers, Magic Johnson's Lakers and Shawn Kemp's Sonics, who won 64 games that season, were better than the Los Angeles' recent Finals opponents — Indiana, Philadelphia and New Jersey. Detroit is the first team to give this group of Lakers a serious challenge.
More pressing than statistics or MVP awards is Bryant's reluctance to be a team player in this year's championship series against the Pistons.
Jordan did the intangible tasks that helped his team win. Bryant does blatant things that do not help his team — like ignoring O'Neal in Game 4 when O'Neal gave the Lakers their only consistent scoring threat.
In five games against the Pistons, Bryant averaged 23 points, 2.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists and shot 38% from the field. The shooting percentage dipped because the Pistons played outstanding defense and because Bryant didn't mind launching wild shots. He needed to get his rather than help the Lakers get theirs.
It's not apparent why Bryant went out of his way to not pass the ball to O'Neal. He didn't go out of his way to pass him the ball, that's for sure. Of Bryant's 22 assists in five games vs. the Pistons, just nine went to O'Neal. For a player who handled the ball a majority of the time, Bryant should have been feeding O'Neal more often. The way O'Neal manhandled Pistons defenders, he should have received more touches regardless of whom was passing him the ball.
In Games 3 and 4, just two of Bryant's seven assists went to O'Neal. In Game 4, which the Lakers needed to win, Detroit had trouble stopping O'Neal. He scored 36 points on 16-of-21 shooting.
O'Neal said he was frustrated at his lack of touches at key times. Bryant said he needed to shoot through his shooting woes.
No one can ever accuse Jordan of letting an in-house dispute get in the way of a ring. It seemed Bryant had no problem allowing his relationship with O'Neal to disrupt Los Angeles' goal.
The Bryant-Jordan comparison makes for interesting discussion.
But it requires the luxury of time passed to make such comparisons. Until then, Kobe Bryant is no Michael Jordan.
Now for the Tengu input: I love Kobe, hes cool, but hes not Jordan, and in time i dont think he will be, he shoots the ball all the time, if T-Mac did as he did, he would be in this arguement also, Kobe has no team ethic, he only cares about himself, and he will even deny it, but the numbers speak for itself, I myslef think T-Mac skillwise is not as good as Kobe, but he is 3x times more reliable on the court, simply because he knows the last shot does not always have to go to him. T-Mac and Yao arew completely comparable to Shaq and Kobe. The rockets are doing well, they have great chemistry, everybody gets a share. Lakers, were winning, team chemistry revovled around Kobe and Shaq, Kobe grabbed most of the points, with Shaq in second, constantly arguing. Basically, what im saying is Kobe is talented, but a player like Michael Jordan, comes once in a blue moon. In these times, Kobe, Dwayne, and T-Mac, are all comparible players. Michael Jordan was compariable with nobody, and generation has nothing to do with it. the only thing that has changed about then and now, is that basketball has gotten more flashier.
Closing Statement: THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER MICHAEL JORDAN
Sorry dude i thought you saying "Kobe chased away the best player he'll ever play with" was you saying it was all Kobe's fault, my bad.
Kobe can be selfish and when he is it pisses me off to no end, my all time favourite player was Magic and i played PG myself back in the UK so im all about team play. Thats one reason why i admire Nash so much.
Wade is the goods, he does play a more team oriented game than Kobe and he is a more active rebounder to. But Kobe is a better defender and a way better shooter. If Wade works on those aspects of his game then i'll have no problem saying he is better than Kobe, but right now i dont think he is. Same with LeBron, he has the best chance of eclipsing MJ one day but so far he hasnt even made the playoffs.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Sorry dude i thought you saying "Kobe chased away the best player he'll ever play with" was you saying it was all Kobe's fault, my bad.
Are you saying he didn't? Again, it wasn't like Shaq wasn't trying to pull his weight too, but in the end Kobe was successful and Shaq wasn't.
Originally posted by D00m
and so we don't totally stray away from what this thread is about, here is Kobe Bryant at his finest... ON THE MIC 😱[b]Thug Poet
[code]http://s16.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=23SEPFMLXV5JG2S0ONIK1KE7HS[/code] [/B]
OOOHHHHHHHHHHH D00m! I cant believe you went there man, i heard about this but i cant bring myself to listen to it. Its probably worse than Shaq Fu.
😆
Tengu, WTF man? Im sure nobody said ANYBODY was better than Jordan. Where did that post come from?