Originally posted by Arroch
But why? Why the hell are there always people who want to rule?? Is there any personal advantage for them when they are the Lord over Lands they have never seen, they never went to, that aren't even paying taxes?? Is this ambition?
Did Sauron not believe, in this vein of thought, that whoever had the One Ring would come against him in open war, wielding the Ring, as Sauron would have done? I wonder if this inspired fear in him, just as Morgoth knew fear and preferred not to face his enemies head on. It is thoughts like this that make me admire Aragorn all the more for revealing himself at an important juncture to Sauron through the palantir. A masterstroke of misdirection! For Aragorn was the one person in Middle Earth that Sauron could believe would come against him.
Another thought on why Sauron does what he does: evil impulse is part of a desire to supplant the One God, Eru, to impose one's own will as a supreme being. Thus, evil will seek to create thralls that reinforce the primacy of the evil "creator."
Another thing...I think I'm stoned again by saying this buuuutttt.....
I believe that Sauron was still acting on instruction from Melkor, whether or not he realised it.
There are supposedly the six attempts by Melkor on dominion of the world; the First War, the primeval one, across the earliest aeons of the creation of the world whereby he fell into evil -- evil that became a part of the very substance of the universe -- and whereby the Spring of Arda was ended; the second time, when he re-entered Arda and built Utumno (culminating in the Battle of the Powers); his escape from Valinor and the Beleriandic Wars against Angband, ended in the War of Wrath; the long Second and Third Age wars waged by the Free Peoples against Sauron; and the Dagor Dagorath, which I suspect is designed to be made possible through Men, and which either way hasn't actually happened yet.
In all the vast works (of Morgoth) and the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
I don't believe there was direct communication between the two, but it is probable that Melkor was able to use/support Sauron and fuel him on. Sauron's urging of the Numenoreans to worship Melkor, however
His name is Melkor, Lord of All; Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they...
More coming...my mom is calling me. 😘
Originally posted by I'm dead...
...perhaps he suffered from the "Why am *I* not a Vala?" complex.I believe that Sauron was still acting on instruction from Melkor, whether or not he realised it.
...seems to imply that Sauron remained faithful to his old lord.
Very interesting idea, that would explain a lot 🙂 sounds logical ✅
Though it kinda in contradiction to the second idea - except if Sauron is indeed a really interesting and deep character. I think it's difficult to combine the wannabe-Vala-complex with remaining faithful to his old Valian lord ~ would form a very complex characterization of Sauron.
I totally agree with the second part ✅
That he remains faithful is quite clear, but I also think that he really acted on Melkor's instruction more or less directly [rather less] - both because of Melkor's earlier influence and also his always-present manipulation of Mortals' ideas and convictions.
It is made clear that the Archangels were "greater beyond compare" than any maiar, even those like Sauron. "Somewhat lesser" does not touch on it.
Wasn't the point about Sauron being bad to do with his not being faithful to Aule who was his proper master - any other role is improper whether or not it should resemble loyalty ✅ There was another maiar, (of Ulmo) who was mislead by Melkor and had his proper place restored by his resuming his place under the proper archangel
Originally posted by Arroch
EVIL 😱I always wondered about the "goals and intentions", as Smodden said it, of Evil - ok for Morgoth it's quite clear, he wants might, he wants power, he wants to rule the world. Same for Sauron.
But why? Why the hell are there always people who want to rule?? Is there any personal advantage for them when they are the Lord over Lands they have never seen, they never went to, that aren't even paying taxes?? Is this ambition?I also wonder what the personal goal of, for example, Dragons or Balrogs is, besides surviving. Why do they fight in battles?
Because they are commanded to do so?
They fight neither for plain surviving nor for freedom nor for so-called [self-]justice nor for anything they admire, they fight just for their Lord though they probably hate him.
Is it fun for them to kill?
I think that the point is that evil is futile and unfulfiling 😛
Originally posted by shaber
There was another maiar, (of Ulmo) who was mislead by Melkor and had his proper place restored by his resuming his place under the proper archangel
Osse, the lover of storms and waves?
True, he was early seduced by Melkor, but his wife Úinen persuaded him to return to his master Ulmo 🙂
An interesting story, also showing that "evil" is avoid- and defeatable even when already mighty...
Originally posted by Arroch
An interesting story, also showing that "evil" is avoid- and defeatable even when already mighty...
Interesting point, there...
But how mighty can it get?...Is there a point where it becomes SO mighty that the evil cannot be reversed?...or be defeated? Is there a line you cross where you can't turn back? I suppose Melkor crossed that line...And was beyond help, but nobody ever realy TRIED to help him...so we'll never know...*shrugs*😕
This is just a random post, not replying to any other posts, but I'm sooo bored and I wanted to write something so...😛
Morgoth was recorded as the most powerful of the Valar.
Power begs for corruption. It went to Morgoth's head and created within him the desire to be even more powerful. This need for strength is sated somewhat by dominating others, and that is exactly what Morgoth did, by corrupting the elves and creating his own little minions to do his bidding.
After that, it's only natural that he would want to dominate everyone else as well.
As for Sauron, well, one of his names was Thu, and if I had that name, I'd be evil too. (*ba-doom-ching!*) 😛
Pride, greed, hubris...
Which, although it is a natural desire in Tolkien's opinion, both Melkor and Sauron take to extremes. Both are motivated by pride and a lust to take everything to themselves. Sauron is more of a possessor, but Morgoth, discovering that he can never rival the creations of Eru, turns to destruction and perversion. In the end he has no real goal other than to torture, warp and destroy the work of all those who hold Eru as the ultimate authority. Sauron resents Eru much less, but allows his pride and will to dominate to take complete control of his actions.
What caused Melkor and Sauron to end up the way they did?
A growing bitterness and greed that translate into a selfish desire for domination through violence. No sense of moderation.
Um...yeah. 🙂