The Fires of Industry---The Machine

Started by Smodden1 pages

The Fires of Industry---The Machine

What do you think are some of Tolkien's views on Technology and Machines?

He obviously didn't like them very much...as he portrayed them very badly in the LOTR.

examples:

sarumans destruction of Fangorn...
Not so much machines here but they cut the trees down to use the wood to power the engines.

Mills...
They soiled the brandywine. When Sharky put up mills everywhere Tolkien describes them as( if i remember right) Chimneys BELCHING out horible black fumes.

You guys think of some more examples

It just seems to me that The machine takes us away that much more from nature. It keeps us apart in a way...And i think Tolkien thinks that too. Its as if The machine is Nature's Arch nemesis...in a way. The machine is evil, to some people and in some ways. A good example of this is the begining of 'Seabiscuit'. And the birth of the assembly-line. But this is about Middle Earth. So lets stay on topic.

Tolkien seems to assosiate(s?) Machines with, Dirty, Evil, Grimy, Bad,...imho...anyone else think so?

there was alot of stuff mostly around Saruman
best scene was when they were showing all the orcs in Isengard building all the weapons and armor and stuff
made me think of a factory (though it might just be that i'm strange)

lots of people say the ents came from an idea of toliens to have nature fighting against industrialism.

others (myself included) think that the idea of the ent came from the times tolkien was reading macbeth, and apparently got rather excited at the idea of Birnam Wood marching against macbeth
was disapointed to learn it was soldiers dressed up in camoflauge.
so he created the ent ✅

both reasonable and most probably both true

I've read somewhere (most likely one of his biographies) that it claims that he hated the idea of new technology and machinery.

I'm not sure of the details, but I'm guessing that he felt the same way that I do. It seems such a shame that amchinery has destroyed the country we live in that used to be so beautiful.

🙁 sniff sniff* exactly cam

some places are still intact!

i'm not an enviromentalist wako...
but some things depress me...like sarumans treachery cuting down the forests! just to make more weapons...so he can use the weapons to destroy people!

its all sad
if only people could find a nice medium you know enough technology to help but not destroy and 75% of the planet still in contact or something so we can have the benefits of both worlds
the beauty of nature is just to neglected today (but i dont think i could give up electricity 😮)

😱

I don't think Tolkien was against all science and technology....only the abuses. But he did see "the Enemy" as the "Lord of Magic and Machines", who used magia for his own power. It was this potential for abuse that concerned JRRT. Having lived in the 20th century, he had seen this happen too many times. Yet it is possible to find positive references to technology in Arda (as well as their negative counterparts).

There are so many different levels and types of technology, and things can become quite complicated when trying to express your views. Such as disliking one form of technology but supporting another.

Although Tolkien expresses in his Letters many sentiments with which I can agree, his dislike of modern technology is one area where I find his views significantly at variance with my own. I can understand his hatred of modern warfare (particularly given his experiences in WW1) but, I can say that it is people, not machines, that kill people. And, as one who greatly appreciates the beauty of my own country, I can understand his sense that the ugliness of modern factories and the like were blighting the land. And I can also (acutely) identify with his thoughts on technological advancements speeding up the pace of life to an unpleasant (and often dangerously stressful) degree.

But he seems to take no account of the benefits that advancements in technology can bring, particularly in terms of medical advancements, standards of living and information availability. Surely all of us can appreciate the wonderful advancements that have been made in medicine in the last half-century, which has contributed to higher standards of living across the world and longer average lifespans than could ever have been conceived of only a few hundred years ago. I once wondered what Tolkien thought of the internet, but I just thought to myself that, as someone who valued information (or at least the communication of thoughts and ideas), he might have recognised the value of the internet. Then again, the internet can be put to good and bad use, just like the “infernal combustion engine” which he lambastes in his Letters.

There's nothing wrong with technology in and of itself. It's all about how you use it. God didn't give us creative natures for nothing, so I don't think that making lesser imitations of nature is so terrible. After all, Tolkien described his stories as sub-creations. Lesser versions of the story that is "real life".

So while technology can be and is used for bad, it's just plain silly to call technology evil. Death, destruction and woe have been around almost forever, which is long before the internal combustion engine. Yes, things like atomic bombs are curses and should never have been invented...but would a person being rushed to the hospital in an ambulance curse the engine that runs the vehicle?

Everything always comes right back to the souls of Men (or Elves or Maiar or Valar or what-have-you). Scapegoating machines is erroneous. Cain didn't need an automatic rifle to kill Abel...his own hands worked just fine.

Anyway, that reads like a little sermon, I know... But anyway I'm just saying that I disagree about who is most prone to evil. I think it is the ignorant and uninformed who fall into darkness more easily. I know that isn't the way it was in Tolkien's world...but it is in our world. All the really evil people have their minions, their ignorant masses. Hitler brainwashed the youth to think his way. Osama Bin Laden didn't fly any planes into the World Trade Center, he got other people to do it for him.

And when you think about it...that is like Tolkien's world, in a sense. The strengths of these "bad guys" lay in their minions...their mindless hosts who have no will of their own and knew only the will of their master. It's always the Orcs and Uruk-hai the heroes must face.

I'm sorry if this has become a ramble... To sum it all up: One powerful man with a host of ignorant men at his command is a lot more dangerous than one powerful man with a new-fangled machine.

And there...ladies and gentlemen...goes the long-posting shadowy_blue...🙄

Sorry.

clap

well put s-b...you have made me reconsider some of my thoughts.

Especially about the man killing man...not the machine killing man.
with that in mind...i must say that machines are made by man, and the tools used for destruction of life are no more than TOOLS. Levers used by men, to make their 'work' easier.

When i was reading the books (lotr) it appeared to me that, the bad guys had all the 'cutting edge' technology. (gunpowder)
while we had old stuff. And maybee thats why I swayed towards thinking that machines were evil. But now reconsidering my thoughts...that sounds stupid...because machines can't think. They are simply a tool used by any body for any purpous.

Just like terminator 3...the term was a robot...a machine used for anything, when he was zappd by that bad girl and turned evil, he became evil...he was then the tool of bad girl and used for HER purposes. which happned to be evil.
ok this isn't the best example because he did think for himself at the end and manage to not kill the good guy, but you know what i mean.

So thanks to some good feedback from you guys I've relized myself beter, and understand a little bit more.

Reading my post it seems like i'm just agreeing with everybody, but i realy have changed my thinking a little bit.

its nice to know you have a wider understanding (isnt discussion great)

and i get what your talking about s-b
and alot of it is just people freaking out "oh my goodness that thing has the potential to kill we must get ride of it" ¿right? i mean there are so many protests against stuff simply cuz its unacceptable for youth or to violent and dangerous though shouldnt we spend less time on the streets complaining to people about the evils and why it should be destroyed and more time educating people on how to deal with it though wise decisions and stuff
thats what i was talking about in my earlier post about a nice medium
technology for medicine and bringing people together and all that with the planet in a usable state cuz this world is (at the moment) the only one we got
at this point in time you really do need both (man kind has let electricity rule there lives to the point of not being able to go back)

¿did that make any sense?

Smodden - nice to know I've actually made a thought-provoking post. I'm glad you understood what I'm saying. And don't worry about the "just agreeing with everybody" thing. You're just confused...all of us are, in one time or another. ✅

azszhz - Yes, I know what you're saying. You make sense. ✅ Technology indeed can be used for good or bad...(just like money 😛 ) But they're not evil by themselves. 🙂

While I agree somewhat to Shadowy Blue's post, I have to disagree in some sense to most of what you stated. For the most part you've compared your feelings and thoughts about technology to Tolkien's concerns which are irrelevant but to no offense to you. Tolkien's dislike for technology was not about the advantages that it brought about, but the wanton and irresponsible destruction it brought. The destruction to Fangorn forest was in direct reference to the destruction of the rainforest even in his day. The reference to the mill at the Shire was how he saw the industrial revolution had an affect to the environment and the impact it had. Technology in medicine was a boon to quite a number of people that died of deadly diseases or botched operations that are now considered rare today. It's still not perfect, but better than in Tolkien's time.

To destroy something in order to create something else was not what Tolkien considered evil or bad, but the recklessness in the way it was brought about grieved him most. The three races of Middle-Earth was or is an indirect reference of what humanity is or can become. The elves being noble and creative and in harmony with nature. Men, being of free will and full of pride and honor. The orcs represent what is bad in humanity. To destroy without thinking and the price one has to pay for technology if only for the sake of technology.

i guess tech isn't all bad...I mean we have the telephone✅...

Re: The Fires of Industry---The Machine

Originally posted by Smodden

You guys think of some more examples

It just seems to me that The machine takes us away that much more from nature. It keeps us apart in a way...And i think Tolkien thinks that too. Its as if The machine is Nature's Arch nemesis...in a way. The machine is evil, to some people and in some ways. A good example of this is the begining of 'Seabiscuit'. And the birth of the assembly-line. But this is about Middle Earth. So lets stay on topic.

Tolkien seems to assosiate(s?) Machines with, Dirty, Evil, Grimy, Bad,...imho...anyone else think so?

Not all technology or machines are bad or evil...but then how do we humanize something that is none thinking?

He may have associated the vileness of it to those that would wield those machines...the industrialists, oligarchs, corporations and those that worship wealth and power...

Tolkien may have or not thought that machines keeps us from nature, for it actually gave him reason to think more of it...

In our day in age, technology has kept most of us cocooned within our four walls in front of a piece of plastic and metal components we call a computer...that in of itself can be a bad thing if that is all we do and nothing else...

sometimes it is necessary to push yourself away from your desk and walk outside to smell the flowers and breath in the air and let yourself feel alive and soak in that which is natural and not artificial...

the evil is that when one becomes so engrossed with technology and with the machines associated with it that we forget our place in the natural world...

that, in my opinion may be what Tolkien was trying to state in the literal sense...

I think we should all keep in mind that Tolkein himself fought deep in the trenches of WWI - so he had good reason to write a story in which the sub-text could read as "nature v. technology"; I'm sure as a soldier in the first World War, he saw just as many deaths due to technology as he did to the elements as he did to weapons, etc.