It;s not what GL wants, though. You believe that cgi should only be sued sparingly for such and such- he doesn't. In his filmaking style, he thinks it should be sued for as much as possible/practical.
So this is all about difference in styles- some people don't like the way he has chosen to do things. Fair enough. I don't really mind myself.
if you can tolerate the visuals of the cgi, that's fine. however, and i've heard liam neeson say this of filming star wars, the lack of a real set and real props and especially real actors, really has a negative effect on the actors. i know that this is essentially "acting" in it's most basic form, but could you imagine having nothing on set except for blue and green screens? wouldn't that be hard to really "get into character" or anything else when there's nothing there? i know ewan mcgregor has said similar things, and it shows in the acting. because they add all the cg later, the actors are supposed to interact with nothing, and if an actor's ability is suffering, then the movie is going to suffer.
i agree with you, Ushgarak but i just think that star wars movies are too important to be using special effects methods that aren't really perfected yet. now, i know that's a contradiction, because the OT was using all sorts of special effects that were new and were pushing the envelope, but this is a little different because GL could have made the movies just fine without such a huge reliance on cgi. the clones and other aliens and gungans - use actors in suits. the ships - use models again. they did wonderful space battles in the OT without cgi ships. sw means too much to too many people to be using it as a vehicle to try out special effects just so that they can benefit future movies once they're perfected. cgi is not nearly as seamless as it could be at this stage in life (although it looks darn good in lord of the rings, much better than the prequals in my opinion) to be jamming every scene full of it. there are other ways, and it seems that GL is only creating certain situations in his movies (like the gungans vs the battle droids, for example) so that he has an excuse to use cgi.
to add to what i said, take digital yoda as an example. the only place where it was absolutely necessary for him to be digital was during his lightsaber fight. that's fine because it's necessary. however, he could have easily been a puppet for the other parts of the film. they would have just had to have used different camera angles so that we couldn't see frank oz beneath him. lucas will say that they wanted him digital to get more expression in his face and to have a greater freedom of movement. but look at puppet yoda in empire strikes back. frank oz did such an amazing job that i think that watching what he does with the puppet is much more emotional than anything digital yoda in ep2 did. and it's not necessary to have a greater freedom of motion, in my opinion. if doing so causes yoda to look less real (because it's cg and not really there) then it's not worth it. it just seems that GL is making yoda digital only because he can, and that's not a good reason.
Actually, I disagree that it could be done without the effects. That's why he waited so long- the point is scale (and also the true interactibility of the more obscure aliens). So whilst there are indeed problems, be assured that he could not have done this without the cgi; that was his plan from the start.
And it's not just the fight with Yoda, not really., Alot of thise walking shots would have been impossible as well! And I thought he looked no less real than the puppet did.
I think all the CG and special effects Lucas uses are great. I was watching a Webdoc from the AOTC dvd, and Lucas was saying how people are always asking him why he uses so much CG, and Lucas said that the real question is, "why not?" It's definitely working visually, and as long as GL backs SW up with a good story, I'd say it's doing it's job.
some of the cg looks great, i'll admit, but i think some of it doesn't and really detracts from the movie for me. cg droids - sure. cg ships - i can live with that, although those yellow naboo ones don't look so hot. basically anything non-humanoid looks ok to me, but once you try to replicate the human form and it's motions, you've got problems. it has to be done with severe caution because it's something that everyone is so familiar with, and any little flaw, like the overly-smooth motion of the clone troopers, like i mentioned earlier, is going to send up some red flags. well anyway, that's my opinion.
Originally posted by UshgarakAnd it's not just the fight with Yoda, not really., Alot of thise walking shots would have been impossible as well! And I thought he looked no less real than the puppet did.
right, but what i'm saying is that it's not necessary to have these walking shots. i'd rather see a puppet yoda (but not the ep1 puppet yoda!) at a different angle and not see his feet, than see a whole body of yoda that to me does not look as real. cg yoda looks ok sometimes, but in other scenes, the texture and lighting seems a bit off, like when he says "begun the clone war has." just really look at him there. like i said before, his face almost looks translucent. and like the clone troopers, his movement is just too smooth. watch how he blinks and how he turns his head in the different shots. his cloak looks great, but sometimes the rest of him just isn't up to par. but seriously, watch the yoda sequences in ESB again. computers at this point just can't replace the human element that frank oz gives yoda in his motions.
Episode 1 showed that a puppet Yoda was no longer viable in the prequel movies. Polling for the movie after its release showed that about 80% of all viewers disliked the new puppet Yoda, so Episode 2 went in a different direction. Digital Yoda is much more preferable to Ep.1 puppet Yoda, and the way the puppet was, was about as good as Lucas was willing to do with a puppet, so it would not have been better.
ok, sorry to keep belaboring the point here, but here's the real question. when you watch the prequals can you tell visually that the cg is not physically there? obviously some things like the kamino aliens you know are cg because of the long neck, but like yoda, or the gungans - can you tell that they are cg? and i don't mean because of their increased range of facial expressions. but when they're just standing there doing things a puppet or a guy in a mask with radio controlled gizmos on his face creating motion could do. to me i can totally tell - some of them stick out like a sore thumb. they just feel out of place. their movement is just off enough to make it apparent to me. when i first saw the clone troopers come into geonosis, i thought they were guys in suits. but when they started moving around, it became obvious to me that they were cg. then i started going, "well wtf?" why even use cg to replace a guy in a suit? what's the point of that? i can understand cg extras filling in the background, but there seems to be no pragmatic purpose for having cg clones up in the foreground interacting with the real actors when you could have real life people in suits doing it better - which also makes it easier for the other actors who have to interact with the troopers. again, this makes me think that GL is just using cgi for the sake of using it. don't get me wrong, it's a great tool when used with care and when it's necessary. but to use it for just any old thing really dumbfounds me.
Originally posted by darth_surgent
Episode 1 showed that a puppet Yoda was no longer viable in the prequel movies. Polling for the movie after its release showed that about 80% of all viewers disliked the new puppet Yoda, so Episode 2 went in a different direction. Digital Yoda is much more preferable to Ep.1 puppet Yoda, and the way the puppet was, was about as good as Lucas was willing to do with a puppet, so it would not have been better.
a puppet yoda is certainly viable - just because people didn't like it doesn't mean that it's no longer an option. people (myself included) didn't like the puppet in ep1 because whoever designed it made it look all goofy. people also didn't like it beceause it looked drastically different than ESB and ROTJ yoda. people like what they're used to. what they should have done is just re-used the ESB one and put some sideburns and more hair on it to make him look 30 or so years younger. so anyway, digital yoda is preferred because he looks more like the original ESB yoda, not because he's digital.
Dude where the hell are you going with this? GL uses cg, so what! GL used to use models on wires and puppets, so what! What difference does it make? Are you a film maker? GL said like twenty five years ago that a special effect is used to tell a story, and that a special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing. He uses any methods nesesarry to get the job done, and as effective as possible. Here is an assignment since you know so much about special effects. Why don't you go and recreate the Clone War from AOTC using stop motion photography, and let us know in about five years on how you are doing. Okay 😄
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually, I disagree that it could be done without the effects. That's why he waited so long- the point is scale (and also the true interactibility of the more obscure aliens). So whilst there are indeed problems, be assured that he could not have done this without the cgi; that was his plan from the start.
ok, if that's the case, then GL and ILM should have done some other movies, like harry potter and whatever else first, in order to hone in on their cg skills and postponed production of the prequals. star wars is just too important to me and others to be the movies in which one uses as a vehicle for experimentation. i think that GL is more interested about pushing technology than about star wars - watch some of his and mccallum's interviews - they often talk about pushing the envelope so that future movies will be benefited from what they're doing now. that's ok, it's his choice, but for something that's a cultural phenomenon and a part of life for so many, you can't afford to, if you want to produce anything as good as the original trilogy, do this.
(can you tell i really care about this issue? 🙂 )
i just want the prequals to be good movies. i like some aspects of them, but i don't think they come close to the OT. i really really really want ep3 to be good. that's all.
Originally posted by OB1-adobe
Dude where the hell are you going with this? GL uses cg, so what! GL used to use models on wires and puppets, so what! What difference does it make? Are you a film maker? GL said like twenty five years ago that a special effect is used to tell a story, and that a special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing. He uses any methods nesesarry to get the job done, and as effective as possible. Here is an assignment since you know so much about special effects. Why don't you go and recreate the Clone War from AOTC using stop motion photography, and let us know in about five years on how you are doing. Okay 😄
no no no, that's not really my point. my point is that it's overkill. yes cg is necessary for the clone war, but not for the clone soldiers. it just seems that there are some pretty bad byproducts of cg, ie not always visually looking as good, and causing poorer acting from the actors at times due to the difficulty they face when interacting with just a blue screen.
i'm not a filmmaker. i'm just a SW fan who is in a forum using it for what it's designed for - sharing my opinions. no harm in that. i'm not flaming, i'm not doing anything wrong.
Originally posted by ih8jarjar
no no no, that's not really my point. my point is that it's overkill. yes cg is necessary for the clone war, but not for the clone soldiers. it just seems that there are some pretty bad byproducts of cg, ie not always visually looking as good, and causing poorer acting from the actors at times due to the difficulty they face when interacting with just a blue screen.
Eventually, Lucas NEEDED digital clones for the massive clone battles which have thousands of them on-screen at once, so he created the digital clonetroopers. Then, for the scenes that show the clones on a smaller scale, it was no longer necessary to create clonetrooper armor and cast new actors, when the digital effects are already there. If Lucas did that, it would mean extra money, more labor on his part, a lot of new casting and direction, and they would not blend in as well with the already-existent clones.
i'm not flaming, i'm not doing anything wrong.
Yeah I know, thats why I put a smiley face at the end of my post. I don't know why either GL made the cone troops cg, who knows. But what can you do about it ya know. Peter Jackson aint complaining about. People call GL a sceming money maker, a horrible filmaker, and number of things due to his actions in the past regarding Star Wars. Honestly, he appears to me as someone who is never satisfied with his work, and has an imagination that is always conjuring up new ideas. He probably figured CGI was the best way to get what he needed
I agree. And his imagination is totally wild. I mean, if you watch all 12 web docs on the AOTC dvd, after you've watched them all, you just get to see how much work actually goes into making these movies, and even how much work goes into a single shot, they make models, paintings, sketches, storyboards, everything and all the stuff GL has to keep up with and maintain, and the animatics department, it's totally crazy. So those who think GL is a bad film maker, he certainly isn't, he did his work, and put in his efforts, just for them, the film probably didn't turn out the way they had envisioned it, therefore making them not like the movie and saying that GL did a bad job with it.
i love the special effects in the new movies. sorry ih8jarjar, but it sounds like you and some others are still in love with the OT special effects too much. i guess when your in love with something you look at it with a curved eye, which in your case is with yoda. yoda hardly looked real in the OT and its even worse looking back on it now. after seeing the new yoda in ep1 i was so happy to hear about them doing a digital yoda in ep2. as for the clone troopers, alot of folks couldn't tell they were cg until a fanboy pointed it out at the theater and the only reason he knew is because he kept up on the spoilers. that goes for alot of the effects in the PT movies. what i really hope is that one day GL will go back and replace that weed-head looking yoda in ep1with a digital one. i'm not dissin anyone's view but some of you guys need to stop living in the past.