potency

Some very good points. Yes, civilisation usually has a good whack of fear in it. And there is a little bit of fear in love, but is there ever a little bit of love in fear?
There is a definite difference between loving life and fearing death. They are not the same. And while a lot of religion, in practice, is based on fear, it should not be, and was never ever ever intended to be so. "In this way, love is made complete in us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgement... there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." 1 John 4:16.
Being motivated by fear is essentially and logically, an empty experience. You are acting to avoid something; so if you fail, you lose something, and if you succeed, you gain nothing. Living in love, however, is much different. It gives strength and courage, or the ability to open up one's mind and heart and soul to another., to take a gamble at impossible odds which nevertheless cannot be lost. Freedom from fear feels GOOD.
Yes, fear is very powerful, and makes up a pretty massive percentage of out motives. But love can, and does, override it.

Excellent form, excellent. And conviction, truly great. However, although I don't fully support the theory, I feel obliged to protect it, as it interests me, and has a strong ring of truth. Maybe, in a shallow way I even fear a lost of respect from you should I back down (just joking, I have no fear of that my friend, which makes it so much better). Power is relative. Love is relative. Are we to say that every person out there has idealistic love? No, there are plenty who fear being alone, but to them, what they find, while shallow to romantics, is love for them. Love is highly personal, as such it rarely unites, fear does, is it shallow for the group lost in the mountains to huddle together because they fear the cold? No, it is wise, a good move, preservation. Doing something for fears sake might sometimes appear shallow, but as psychology shows, without motivation we would do nothing. One of the prime reasons why Communism failed, people do not do things for no reason, more often then not, it is for something. Why do we eat? Because we need to, or we starve, and we hurt. Logically we eat, but mentally we know to fear the effects of lack of food. Fear has the dominant power in our lives. What makes us individuals is how we deal with it, to an extent we let it lead us, other times we rule it, or ignore it. With out fear this species would die. We would walk in front of cars or off cliffs. Not because were dumb, but because without that fear we don't respect the threat. I like to think I do a lot of good things, I am a charity animal, and I do them because it is good. But many I know do it because they fear how they will be seen if they do nothing. Many also have been hurt in "love". Many fear love, the failed romance of the past. Does that mean they will never love again? No, more often then not though they gain fear of such hurt, and are more careful, which remarkably has for many led to long, loving relationships. And the quote is good. Idealised. But I also remember a angry god punishing the world with a flood. People laughed. They had no fear of such things, they new it not. They are said to have died to the man. People respected god for a time after this. Pharaoh had no fear of god, refused his commands. God sent punishment until Pharaoh feared, and relented. Who can forget Adam and Eve, so innocent and fearless. That lack of fear led them to the apple. Then they hid, for they feared the punishment. The Bible is full of fear. And it inspires us to obey.

Hmm... more excellent sparring. Ok. Firstly, I ddon't eat out of fear that I'll starve to death otherwise; I eat because I enjoy eating, and I want to maintain a moderately healthy existence. And I fail to leap in front of cars, not because I am afraid of the car smashing my fragile skeleton and bursting my lungs, but because I know that doing so would be rather silly, to say the least.
Yes, the desires to avoid bad stuff (fear) and the desire to attain good stuff (love, really) exist in everyone's lives. It is impossible, I think, to act entirely out of love, or entirely out of fear. And there is such a thing as healthy fear, which is akin to wisdom. But there are definite differences between having fear and love as your primary motivation.
Yes, there is a lot of fear in the bible. There is also a lot of love. In the Bible, God floods the Earth and sends plagues against the Egyptians. But this was done primarily out of love, apparently, for humanity in general and God's chosen people in particular.
A few random quotes-
"God is love" (somewhere in 1 John 4)
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." (the brilliant "love chapter," 1 corinthians 13)
Perhaps fallen, corrupted mankind defaults to motivation by fear, but love is what we are designed to want and need and live by. A young child does their homework because they don't want their parents to yell at them; a (well balanced) teenager does their homework because they enjoy what they are doing. A relationship based around fear of dying alone can GROW to become one based around love (and hence strength and hope); someone can adhere to a religion out of fear of hell, but gradually GROW to stick with it out of love for God.
Speaking as one for whom everyday life is an endless battle against constant, gnawing, low-grade fear, I can say with absolute conviction that love- with a sibling, a friend, a lover or a God- alone has the power to make my existance something worth having. It is transcendant, and powerful, and entirely beyond my ability to understand. Love is indeed quite spunting.

I am truly honoured to have matched wits with ye on this most deep of subjects, you debate with such power and belief. Still I fear a sense of full circle. An agreement to disagree. Love <> Fear, interconnected. It is still possible to see interactions but. A man sacrifices his life for the women he loves, interaction, he loves her so much he overcomes his fear of death. A noble thing. A beautiful thing. A loving thing. But never the less a thing that contains fear. He surely fears her death, if he didn't would he sacrifice himself? He certainly would fear the guilt that would come, if he let her die, and to loose love, to live with out it.... such fear is that. Love is powerful, no doubt. But just as theologians claim good can not exist without evil, love could not with out fear. And yes God loves us, but he is not above using fear to express his love? To keep us safe he threatens hell...... so is this a case of the means justifies the end? Or the end justifies the means? If so, once again we are looped. No love of god without fear. But fear without love of god exists regardless? A frightening thought, best not to think that far. But as such we see the inescapable thing. Fear is a motivator. It is not shallow, it shows us not to do that rather silly stuff.... and a dark question, it is obvious fear can be over come by love, but can love be over come by fear? Winston Smith in 1984 knows the answer is yes. They are inexorably tied, fear and love, but in terms of power, the power to unite - often fear. The power to strive - often fear. The power to coerce and protect - fear. This theorem I have supported give fear the title, and I feel it is a good argument.

Good read
Good to see you two compromising, thats love!

Ahh, sweet compromise. I suppose I must give fear more credit.
I think love can exist without fear, and that good can exist without evil. It helps if you think of love, good etc being the original plan for existence, how things should naturally be. Evil is the corrupted, lesser, degenerate version of the natural state of things, ie good. Humans are meant to live in love, but due to living in a fallen universe, usually end up having large amounts of fear and selfishness and short-sighted stupidity mixed up in their souls as well. Because of this, God is unable to use just love to prevent people from destroying themselves; he must instead grab their attention with a good whack of fear and then help them mature and bloom with love. (Reading over that last sentance makes things sound rather unnapealing, I must admit, but hey.)
Yes, fear is indeed powerful. But I still hold that love can be even more powerful.
Perhaps I'm not arguing against some of your points very well, if so, I'm sure you will reiterate them for me.
Gracias...

No, you are going quite well, and compromise is indeed sweet. I fear perhaps I have supported fear to much, and I would love to be proven wrong. After all, it is natural to strive for better things, (fear playing a part perhaps) and certainly fear is often not seen as a nice thing, negative connotations abound, but it still plays such a major part of our lives, I wonder why we give it so little recognition? Is it because we try to hide our most distinctive, driving emotions? We resist ugly anger, sadness and so forth, but they pale before fear and love. Perhaps it is like the bald man with the comb over. It is a distinctive part of him, but he is not proud of it, hides it. I have heard the saying of late that love over comes all, but have seen very little evidence of it. In a time of war, hate, fundamentalism, growing class divide and so on, I have seen the rise of fear like the ominous hunters moon. I think love is great, maybe it has the potential to be more powerful the fear, but for all of history and even today, I fear that fear has been the potent and most driving emotion.

It is difficult, often, to admit just how much an important part fear is of our lives. It certainly is a pretty huge part of my essential motivations, but, slowly, it is ceasing to become my prime motivator. Which feels GOOD.

"I have heard the saying of late that love over comes all, but have seen very little evidence of it. In a time of war, hate, fundamentalism, growing class divide and so on, I have seen the rise of fear like the ominous hunters moon."

It is true that fear is an increasingly powerful force in these troubled times, shaping as it does much of international policy. But it is not true that there is little "love overcoming fear" in today's world. Ok, there is sod-all selfless love on the global scale, but it is possible to think of countries as being "mobs," which are famed for being far more stupid and capricious than the individuals who form them.
But on the interpersonal scale, love overcomes fear every single day. We all know couples or friends or families for whom love is the most important part of their existance. Or at least I do. Seeing that love is a beautiful experience. Flashes of love and power and sacrifice illuminating a murky world of dreary selfishness and low-grade fear...
And congrats on arguing for such a difficult theory. After all, I have nice conotations and happy-clappy feelings backing me up, although love is not always "nice..."

And love of life could be just fear of death? 😄

Ah, thank you, your acknowledgement and compliments do me a world of good, and are much appreciated. As is your insightful view of the situation. Of course I feel that we return to an earlier point of mine, love is, of course a powerful emotion, a powerful, primarily personal emotion. And to draw parallels, what is, in the end more potent? The state, or the individual? In a dictatorship, well, its the state, and in a democracy a lone person, even a hundred, or a 1000 people or more are still often less powerful then the state, and thats if they all somehow manage to think alike. And even then they are often manipulated by.... fear. It is said that the Bush Admin uses fear on the people. Here in Australia we have the people friendly, loving Mark Latham actually being feared. Why? His policies are based upon optimism and decency, but Howard makes us fear him "he will raise rates", or "he'll be weak on terrorism and you will be in danger". In such light, all the love we feel for Latham is retarded by the effect of fear. Perhaps to the extent were we will vote for a man with a prov-en record of using fear and lies to keep us pliable. It pains me, but love, my most treasured love, still seems so homely, so personally, while fear runs nations, builds religions, motivates millions in some way. To strive for love is great, although once again, studies show more people are staying single and putting off love for careers and power.... why? To strive for success, instead of seeking a soul mate? Could fear play a part?

More damn good posting. Fear is indeed distressingly powerful. But...
I am thinking about the people I have encountered today- family, friends. I am thinking about the fear in my life, and the love which I share with certain people. The fear feels like such a monotonous, dreadful, quagmirish thing, whereas the love and friendship is vibrant and brilliant, a coruscating, living thing that sets my mind and emotions aflame. Or something like that. I know that subjective emotions are not the best fuel for an arguement, but they are as much a part of life as thought is, so why not use 'em, says I.
Fear runs nations. But love makes them great. Which inspires you more, the endless drudgery of life for a peasant in feudal china, or Byzantium's last Emperor dying fighting on the walls to save the city he loved, even though he knew that he would die?
Fear builds religions. No, fear builds the orginisations that persuade people to go to a church once a year to hear a bit of archaic muttering. Love builds wonderful, personal, challenging (yet comforting) relationships with people and with God.
Fear motivates millions in some way. Where do you think those millions came from? Surely not every child on the planet was born into a loveless marriage (or other such relationship.)

Touche, I am indeed partial to the concept of a noble death, and noble life. And I also like to understand my emotions. To recognise them. I listen to them, and let them act as adviser, but stay in control. In recognising fear, however, I see that it is indeed a part of my life, perhaps not a joyous part, but if can be used as such a tool, harnessed. Referring to earlier points of how courage is the overcoming of fear, the Loan of Arc, who fears her fate, but overcomes it. Any structure must have a solid base, and fear can often be such a base, it can be the soil from which springs some of our most vualted virtues. Can we have true courage with out fear? "Your either very brave (to over come fear) or very stupid". And true sacrifice, even for the greatest of purposes, still needs the aspect of fear, the moment where the person says "You may take our lives, but you'll never take our freedom". They know fear, but they vanquish it. It is the same as the earlier point, God needs to use fear in order to build love, bravery needs fear, courage needs fear. Independence and individuality need fear. It is not an evil thing. Sure, give me love any day, I couldn't live with out it, but equally so I would never say remove all fear. In fact, as history shows, from Suma through to today, fear is vital for establishing civilisations, for making them safe, and keeping order. As a tool of order and light fear actually aids love, but no nation, and no matter how optimistic I am, could be said to have survived on love alone. People need it, yes. But the world, sadly does not. Animals live without love apparently, but need fear. A thinking beast vitally needs love for itself, and even to share, but just as much it needs fear to a degree. Although, once again to look at history I question even when love began. Up till relatively moder times (and still in many places) love was not a seek-able goal. Arranged marriage, slavery, and so forth dominated the world for a long time, people married young, for social reasons, at least it seemed. And the world survived and grew with out the poets concept of love. But It never did without fear. In fact I would say look at the Morlock and Eloi of Wells Time Machine. A people without fear, but plenty of feel good vibes, like lambs to the slaughter were led...........

Ok. Fear has its uses. But it is pretty damn awful to have it as your primary motivation, as the most potent thing in your existence. Also, while "romantic love" may be a modern concept, friendship and patriotism and love of children are not...
And the eloi had no fear, but they also had no wisdom or knowledge. Love is not necessarily nice and happy- truly giving yourself to another person in love generally forces you to see your own flaws, whether you like it or not...
But yes, I can indeed see the uses of fear. Congrats, says I!

These Junior Members scare me. 😛

And congrats in return. It is indeed rather terrible to think of fear being a sole motivator. And your points are well made, and very wise, and I recognise the awesome nature of love. And yes, fear and love, vital, interlinked. Still, perhaps there is a different power, which is held by love. No person venerates or worships fear, despite its importance. No body loves it. No body wants it. Many despise it. Fear is never the hero, never the star of epic or poem. Fear, for all its power is sad. It is lonely at the top. Love is the pinnacle of idealised, personal being, fear perhaps that of physical, large scale existence. Never the less, everyone would chose love any day, which is, quite frankly a very powerful thing, and perhaps, the more potent thing......

Oh, and don't worry, I most certainly scare myself. 😆

Hmm. There are different kinds of fear.
Type number one: the dreadful, paralysing, low-grade stuff that prevents humanty from actually being what it should. Often associated with a lack of confidence...
Type number two: overarching moral dread. Also known as wisdom... this is good fear, since it is more based around an attempt to fix that which is wrong, instead of merely fleeing from it. A recongnition that things are not as they should be, and a desire to see them reach their full potential... which sounds, to me, rather like love. Oh sod, have I just invalidated half my points? I hope not.
There is a third type of fear- High English, which generally consists of things like "I fear Lord Montmercy shan't reach Ploverton by noonfall." Um.

And I love scaring senior members...

Snicker. I use High English far to much, and who wants to go to Ploverton, such a drab place......

True love can only be broken by another woman with bigger boobs and longer legs.

ha ha ha just kidding guys.

I almost felt the veins in my eyes explode when halfway through that last post...