Fahrenhype 9/11

Started by Lord Soth4 pages

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
yeah, but then again. In your eyes conservatives restrict freedoms, but in the eyes of a conservative liberals restrict freedoms. extreme liberalis and conservatives have a disease. they never talk to each other, only at each other. I personally dont have the patience to speak with people who say that liberals or conservatives restrict freedoms or bring this country down. I dont like to put titles on my religoun or politcal views.
Conservative think that liberals threaten freedom, not resdtirct it. For some reason they believe that following the ideologies of America to the letter means we're terrorists for some sh** like that

Originally posted by Konjammenson
Don't you love it how upset Michael Moore fans get as soon as they taste their own medicine?
Our own medicine my ass. Michael Moore is asking serious questions in his documentaries. Sure, he's biased, but he's trying to make a point. People like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly are simply attacking Michael Moore, and making no point whatsoever, only to take potshots at him, like the French thing.

Originally posted by MornGlory
yawn Michael Moore is tiring - and boring me

darth revan leave me alone.... 😠

Is that your only reply to his valid argument? Beautiful. 👆

Originally posted by Lord Soth
Conservative think that liberals threaten freedom, not resdtirct it. For some reason they believe that following the ideologies of America to the letter means we're terrorists for some sh** like that

We have people like that on both sides and it pisses me off. I hate it when somebody (Dem or Rep) completely tries to force their ways upon another by simply saying the other side is stupid. I believe some people SHOULD be Democratic and some people SHOUlD be Republican because you should side with whoever has YOUR priorities. Some have different priorities and I respect that. Example: I have been attacked and called stupid for simply being a Republican when people haven't even heard my reasons or beliefs for why I am Republican. I know some Republicans do the same to Democrats. People like that on both sides are retarded.

Originally posted by Darth Revan
Indeed they are... Really they're only making Moore's movie more successful by giving it more publicity. If they had any sense, they would just leave it alone and let people believe it. If you're a liberal, you're going to be closer to agreeing with Fahrenheit 9/11 than this Fahrenhype thing no matter what. Useless trying to change people's minds.

I wouldn't say that Fahrenhype was useless. Sure it is useless to liberals because they are bias just like Fahrenheit is useless to conservatives. Where the struggle really was, was between the undecided. Conservatives didn't want undecided voters to take Moore's opinions as truth so they released this one to cancel it out.

Moore made a movie with an admitted bias. He made his point whether you agree with it or not is up to you.

But a movie who's soul purpose is to attack a previous documentary is just sad and validates the points of that movie that it is attacking. And anyone who would associate with Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly needs a lobotomy.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Moore made a movie with an admitted bias. He made his point whether you agree with it or not is up to you.

But a movie who's soul purpose is to attack a previous documentary is just sad and validates the points of that movie that it is attacking. And anyone who would associate with Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly needs a lobotomy.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

Originally posted by AMN Inc
French, Nazi, Liberal... All nothing but labels used by primitive, ignorant fools.

People like Myth and MornGlory are so pathetically desperate to belong to a group for the sake of acceptance that they will participate in any intellectual-bashing, simple-minded, emotional nonsense that they consider necessary to avoid being called "unpatriotic". People like them cheer mindlessly at catchphrases and flag-waving while giving unquestioning support to people they'd "like to have a beer with" and "represent moral values". What morals have the Republicans demonstrated in the last four years? Get off your lazy moronic asses and read a newspaper.

I think it is contemptible for anyone to try to gain cheap political points by comparing people they disagree with to Nazis. This type of comparison is so contemptible that it should be reserved for those who are truly diabolical, like Sadam Husein, not mere political opponents. But I don't think the soldier interviewed in the movie is doing this. Instead, he is simply saying that Mr. Moore himself would not appreciate being misrepresented the way the military folks were misrepresented in Mr. Moore's movie. That is, the soldier speculated that Mr. Moore himself would not appreciate someone misrepresenting him--calling Moore a Nazi, for example.

Although I do typically enjoy cocktail-party psychology, my experience has been that it typically misses the mark, and I think your comments are no exception. I am not convinced that conservatives are motivated by a need to "fit in." If this were true, they would clearly side with liberals, not conservatives. What does conservativism have to offer beyond the myth of objective morality, simple-mindedness and flag-waving patriotism? I'm kind of drawing a blank here. Liberalism, on the other hand, affords it converts the opportunity to become members of an exclusive club: The intellectual elite. As members of this exclusive club, converts to liberalism have many opportunities to lord their intellectual superiority over the simple-minded, uneducated masses. Moreover, liberalism invariably provides its converts with a magnified sense of social enlightenment. Make no mistake. This is a powerful combination. Anyone who has not experienced the level of person gratification that invariably results from feeling singularly--but selectively--compassionate towards the less fortunate and intellectually superior to the plebeian masses really should give liberalism a try.

No, I don't think it is a question of "fitting in." Most conservatives I know simply don't have the elitist mindset that modern liberalism seems to require.

Originally posted by bgaarsoe
Most conservatives I know simply don't have the elitist mindset that modern liberalism seems to require.

I don't mind your comments as long as you are saying "most" and not saying "all" but at the same time, it sounds like you are implying that Republicans are uneducated. As I said, both sides have their retards. I have my reasons for being Republican as many others have theirs for being Democratic. For example, I strongly disagree with abortion (and not because of religious reasons, if you want to know why, check that section), I disagree with much of the use of welfare (I don't think it is bad, but needs to be fixed rather than just increased like Dems want to do), and I support the war (I strongly believe in justice. I know there was no WMDs and all that crap but order still needed to be brought to that country). There are other reasons as well. However, this does not mean I am one of those retards as well that just vote along party lines. I vote according to what I think is right or wrong, or the best options and it just so happens that most of the things I agree with are Republican views. But as I said, I don't just vote along party lines because that is stupid. I ended up voting for 4 candidates that actually had opponents and 1 of them was a Democrat over a Republican. Also, there are things like the gay issue which I lean more towards the liberal side. Honestly, what I'd propose is a separation between church and state completely in that category: having civil unions and marriage completely separate. Civil unions would acknowledge a couple as being "together" under law. This would give gays ALL of the same rights as straights. Then we could leave marriage COMPLETELY up to the churches. This would be NOTHING but the title of "marriage." This way, even Mormon's could have multiple wives under their religion yet it wouldn't give any extra benefits for having multiple spouses (which is the typical argument against multiple spouses).

But anyway, stop refering to Republicans for being uneducated just for having different beliefs than you have. I do not do that to you, I wish you would do that for me.

Originally posted by Lord Soth
Our own medicine my ass. Michael Moore is asking serious questions in his documentaries. Sure, he's biased, but he's trying to make a point. People like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly are simply attacking Michael Moore, and making no point whatsoever, only to take potshots at him, like the French thing.

See?

OK, I think I got a little carried away, I apologise. A lot of what I said was generalisation. But Myth, let me ask you this about Iraq: what kind of means to order is war?

Apology accepted. I think the war was necessary to bring justice to the people of Iraq. The news goes frantic with the rebels of Iraq making it look like nobody wants us there, which is untrue. Most Iraqis have been happy to have us there freeing them from Saddam's rule. Heck, I wouldn't call it justice when athletes get their fingers cut off for simply not winning in the Olympics as well. Plus Saddam was a definite threat as well to the United States. Sure he didn't have any WMDs (anymore) but he had plans to build more and I don't feel a dictator such as him should be in power with possession of such weapons. Then again, this is just my opinion and others may not think that this does justify war.

Even under the assumption that Hussein had plans to build weapons, does that make him more of a threat than India or Korea, who have nuclear weapons? Besides, I have seen accounts of Iraqis saying that Iraq is in an even worse state now than it was under Hussein, and that no action takes place without the approval of Illawi (sp) the Prime Minister, almost making him a dictator himself. The footage of innumerable civilian casualties in Farhenheit 9/11 makes one wish the U.S. had taken a more careful approach.

Originally posted by Konjammenson
See?
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Originally posted by Lord Soth
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

🙄

I quite liked the documentary. It's one of the best of 2004. You can hate Michael Moore all you want but he puts a lot of descriptions in it and I can understand that most of you guys hate him but he's making a point to the audience. He doesn't care if he gets laughed at

^^ why do so many people defend michael moore witht he knowledge that he packs a whole lot of crap in his films. As if acknowledging that there are deceptions is o.k. because he's making a point. In other words, it is as if you are saying we should agree with people who lie to us simply because they are expressing themselves.

I've noticed that Moore omits facts sometimes or structures things in a way that promote his point of view, but the word "deception" and the word "lie" are not interchangable.

Originally posted by AMN Inc
Even under the assumption that Hussein had plans to build weapons, does that make him more of a threat than India or Korea, who have nuclear weapons? Besides, I have seen accounts of Iraqis saying that Iraq is in an even worse state now than it was under Hussein, and that no action takes place without the approval of Illawi (sp) the Prime Minister, almost making him a dictator himself. The footage of innumerable civilian casualties in Farhenheit 9/11 makes one wish the U.S. had taken a more careful approach.

It’s apparent from your comment that people in Australia have a starkly different view of both India and Iraq than many of us here in the states. Here in the US, India has always been viewed as a non-aggressive—even passive—ally that has never made any threatening gestures towards the US. Moreover, India is a free society, supports an open democracy and is largely dominated by religious sects that espouse non-violence. Non-violence is so pervasive in Indian culture that India traditionally only engages in armed conflict when it is forced to defend itself. (It is interesting to note that even a nation as passive as India understands the importance of national defense.)

Iraq, on the other hand, represents the antithesis of Indian culture to many Americans. Instead of being a passive, democratic ally, Sadam’s Iraq was a brutal dictatorship with a long history of torturing and killing its own citizens, attacking—or outright invading—its neighbors, openly supporting terrorism (remember the large stipends paid to the families of terrorists?), and destabilizing the region when left to its own devices. Moreover, as with many other Middle Eastern countries, the dominant religious sects in Iraq more closely resemble cults of death bent on the destruction of non-believers than the peaceful religions that dominate India.

So, now that you know our perspective on both India and Iraq, which would you view as being the larger threat? A passive and generally peaceful democratic ally that is already armed with nuclear weapons or a brutal, anti-western dictatorship that has the will, the means and the determination to create nuclear weapons?

As far as North Korea is concerned, I have to agree: North Korea is definitely on par with Iraq, and I’m sure it will ultimately be dealt with, as will Iran and its burgeoning nuclear program. You should keep in mind, however, that every situation is different, and common sense dictates that you cannot follow a cookie-cutter approach when it comes to foreign affairs, so what was appropriate for Iraq may not be appropriate for Korea—or even Iran. One grave concern I have regarding armed conflict with Northern Korea, for example, is the likelihood of failure. I think the probability of success with Iraq was quite high. North Korea, on the other hand, is a rather touchy situation: Despite the level of threat North Korea’s nuclear program poses, we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a larger conflict with a potentially more dangerous sometime ally of North Korea: China. This could be virtual suicide, not only for the US but possibly the entire world. My point here is that it is absurd to assume that because we invaded one country based on a perceived nuclear threat that we must treat every similar threat the same way just to give the appearance of moral consistency. It is not by coincidence or lack of moral consistency that lead us back in the 80’s to attack the small island of Grenada that posed little threat to the US while at the same time avoiding war at all costs with the nuclear armed Russia and Red China. This is really common sense, if you think about it. In my opinion, assessing both the potential costs and benefits of each unique situation is a much wiser foreign policy plan than simply implementing a cookie-cutter approach in the fancied interests of moral consistency.

As far as Illawi is concerned, I don’t know what to say. How do you prevent chaos in a country that has just lost its leadership without quickly imposing a new interim government? Do you really believe that it would have been in Iraq’s best interest to cut and run and simply say here is your new country devoid of leadership and security--you guys figure it out? Are you really concerned that the US might turn Iraq into a 51st state or a new colony? Come on now. Is this really who you think we are? Are you at all familiar with the US’s long-standing tradition of giving sovereignty back to countries we have conquered in war as soon as these countries have become stable? Do you remember Japan and Germany—or more recently, and more germane to this discussion, Kuwait? What, besides anarchy, would you suggest as an alternative to Illawi’s temporary assignment?

One brief note about the conditions in Iraq: As any student of history can tell you, living conditions always decline initially after the fall of a government as various factions vie for power. This was certainly the case in Germany at the end of World War II. In fact, after the war had essentially ended, over 400,000 Russians military men gave their lives just trying to gain control of Berlin and stamp out the last remnants of nazism—or, as we might call them today, insurgents. Also keep in mind that stability is a hallmark of those who rule with an iron fist, but I really hope you don’t believe that this makes tyranny preferable to the untidy road that leads to democracy and freedom.

Pictures of dying and injured civilians juxtaposed next to images of exploding bombs: Disturbing images intended to strike and emotional cord in the viewer for the purpose of demonizing the responsible parties. For many years, this has been one of the propagandist’s favorite tools. This technique can be used to curry favor for either side of an armed conflict. The fact is, civilian casualties are one of the tragic realities of any armed conflict, and it is no trick for someone opposed to the conflict to exploit these innocent victims of war to curry favor for their own political agenda. If you want to really see tragic civilian loses, do some research on the innocent victims on all sides of the World War II conflict. Once you have done this, come back and tell me how difficult it would have been for someone who was against the Allied forces’s opposition to Hitler to prance around Dresden or Berlin and exploit the death and suffering of ordinary citizens caused by Allied bombing runs. Would you also conclude from these images that the Allies were nothing more than a bunch of bloodthirsty warmongers who engaged in wonton recklessness and who should have just left the poor Nazis alone?

As well used and tired as the above mentioned technique is, I am always amazed that there is such a ready crowd willing to be sucked in by this type of obvious and unsophisticated ploy. In my opinion, you either have to be incredibly naive or intellectually dishonest to be duped into believing based on images of civilian suffering that US service men and women are bloodthirsty warmongers who stoically engage in wonton recklessness and endanger innocent civilians. Anyone who has been paying attention and can put aside their own political prejudices long enough to develop even a modicum of intellectual integrity would realize than many of the US service men and women who have lost their lives in Iraq have die for such things as failing to gun down an approaching suicide bomber for fear it might really be an innocent civilian, for failing to level a Mosque that had been turned into a military bunker and shooting gallery, or for failing to level a whole city, for that matter, once it was determined to be infested with radical Islamists bend on destroying US troops. If you really had been paying attention to these types of things instead of latching on to every word or image that bolstered your inextricably ingrained political biases, you would have never come to the absurd conclusion that the civilian casualties in Iraq are simply the result of our wonton recklessness and utter disregard for the well-being of the Iraqi people.

Originally posted by AMN Inc
I've noticed that Moore omits facts sometimes or structures things in a way that promote his point of view, but the word "deception" and the word "lie" are not interchangable.

The very definition of a lie is the intent to deceive. Trading in your semantical games for a little intellectual honesty would probably make you sound a little more credible here, but of course that would require you to set aside those well-engrained political biases I mentioned earlier.

lie2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l)
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

v. lied, ly·ing, (lng) lies
v. intr.
To present false information with the intention of deceiving .
To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.

v. tr.
To cause to be in a specific condition or affect in a specific way by telling falsehoods: You have lied yourself into trouble.

Idiom:
lie through one's teeth
To lie outrageously or brazenly.

-Webster Dictionary