Defining God: Discussing the nature and attributes of God

well if it is the trinity concept you think pf well this is how I saw it
god is one being that are/can be recognized in 3 manners: father, the son and the holy spirit

it is a dogma form the early christians and I dont think they really knew what the hell they were doing when they came up with it

I think it goes back to the jews though. It mentions the word, the father and the holy spirit being part of god in the old testament aswell.

Im not quite sure why you find it illogical so if you wouldn't mind I could use little more of an elaboration.

Im not quite sure why you find it illogical so if you wouldn't mind I could use little more of an elaboration.

ok.

Heh heh, that was a troll like post wasn't it. I did post my real opinion of you clickclick and I am not sorry for it. I am skeptic of your beleifs, I don't know you. However, I used my own personal opinion system rating you and then told you to look at your own posts using it. That is my error and for that I am sorry. This post was a vent of my own frustration and my intention was not to cause trouble but to change your point of veiw.

Before questionning ourselves if there is a God or not, we must first describe what he is.
Since no real proof of the existence of God actually exists, it is very complicated.
Many points of view will be written here, and all of them are important and should enter in consideration in the description of the Ultimate Force.
(Please, sentences like: God is a carebear will be rejected)
First of my question: If there is a God, is he dead or alive? Does he influence the laws of the universe when he is in it, or in another "dimension", if I can express myself that way?

Um, I say God is a higher power, like us except more power then we have. I believe God is alive because whebn I worship him there's just this thing that wants to burst out of me and i don't think that thing could be dead if i felt like that. I believe he's always there-everywhere watching us.

What is God?

So if I want God to be me, I am God.
This is an excentric example, but the principle applies. God cannot be what we want him to be.

God cannot be what we want him to be.

God is something you don't have any control over. You can't decide if he is good or evil because you don't know. Whitch brings us back to the first question: What is God?

nah, if i choose the cosmic reaction that caused the big bang as my god that would be my god. And for me that god would be that comsic reaction nothing more, no creator of rules no judicial deity and so on.
Unless you follow a set religion where the rules about what god is is already set yo can make your god whatever you want that god to be

Well as far as we know we know he is not human but some kind of spirt or ghost or what ever you may call it.Like the devil we can't see him but we know somehow that he is with us at all times.JM

Like the devil we can't see him but we know somehow that he is with us at all times

Originally posted by clickclick
Ok fire, I will address your questions. It probably wont be as direct as you expected but these things are interrelated.

I will begin with the existence of anything. I will speak on the issue of the existence of the universe but in order to do that I will go back to the beginning point, the singularity. Now I believe that both Einstein and Hawking stated that it would be pointless to think of what preceded the singularity. This is something that I feel is accurate but only if one is an unobjective atheist. You are not going to going to get proof that random chance created the universe, I can assure you of that. I am not an atheist however, so I will delve into the issue. The premise is that from nothingness, came something, without cause and by random chance. A singularity that was infinitely dense and infinitesimal volume. Without cause (obviously this would violate the law of cause and effect) but the entire the singularity violates all known laws of nature. This requires one to believe that something began to exist, existed outside space time, without cause yet with a definite effect. From there, without cause again but and again with effect, it expands etc. Something violating the laws of nature like that in truth is a supernatural concept. How about the existence of the laws of nature? Laws indicate boundries. Somehow these boundries came into existence without cause by random chance. Why would something that violates the laws of nature suddenly create laws, not a few laws but many that govern the universe, that created order for our universe. Not only order on a big scale but order on smaller scales aswell. The suggestion is that random chance not only did that but now creates boundries for order instead of chaos. Nothing about this concept sounds random at all. One can also not suggest that those laws already existed through eternity (a weird concept in itself) because the singularity violates those laws. It existed when and where those laws were not.

So then we get to life from non life, spontaneous generation if you will. The suggestion once again is that random chance created not only the complexities of life (why?) but life itself from non life. Why would anything ever even arise from non life without cause by random chance? So again we arrive at a premise that random chance is some ultimate creator. Random chance is not some ultimate creator though, I can assure you of that. Random chance (unaided by any outside force) will not even create something as incredibly simple as a car and yet the suggestion is that it created something as complex as DNA? As complex as even a single celled organism?

On the notion of random chance creating things. Now if life were the result of random chance, it would have no purpose. Which would also mean that a human is no more important than an animal, which is no more important than a banana which is no more important than a rock. The existence of these things according to atheism has no purporse. One could reasonably even suggest that based on those beliefs that anything that was created with a purpose is actually more important. So an eraser or a pencil ( anything that was created with purpose) is more important than life which is the purposeless the result of random chance. Now it is extremely doubtful that anybody would truly believe those things but even if they did, it goes deeper than that.

When a single celled bacteria dies I assume that an atheist wouldnt care (as they shouldnt) or a spider dying what have you but what about when their dog dies/their pet, an animal period or even a human? With atheistic beliefs, all that was lost was something that was without purpose, there is nothing to care about. If somebody cries because of a death, feels distraught or what have you, there actions are in direct conflict with this.

I'm sorry, however interesting this is, this does not proof the existence of a deity in anyway. It is not because we do not know the cause of the universe that it has none. It is not because we do not know the existence of the laws of nature that they were created by random chance-which is not the same thing as saying they were made by a deity. This, to me, sounds like someone using human ignorance as a way to proof god. kinda like "Cause if we can't explain it it most be god" I don't buy that.
So life without purpose is contradicted because people crie when somebody dies and so forth. I think people do not know the purpose of life, let alone know if there is or is not a purpose to life. But this does not conflict with people forming emotional bands with eachother and thus feeling sad when that person is gone.

Originally posted by clickclick
Now lets move on to the whole moral issue. Now lets pretend for five seconds that macro evolution does exist. The proposed theory is simlpicitiy + random genetic mutations + natural selection begets complexicity. The theory of evolution in a nut shell. Now, animals have no observable moral code, they simply act instinctivily. The fact that animals exist like that can be construed as making sense according to the atheistic belief (this of course is termporarily suspending all the other stuff I have brought up so far) However unlike those animals, humans demonstrate a moral code. If humans are merely evolved animals as atheists believe, why do we have a moral code? Human moral code is no illusion yet it defies atheistic explanation. Not even random chance could possibly explain that one but that is no surprise because it cant explain a lot of things. If there were no creator who is divine (good and goodness) and life were indeed purposeless, then there is no moral good nor bad. No moral law as all of it be completely subjective though it shouldn’t even exist in truth. The question then becomes, how come humans operate contradictory to that? Additionally, natural law dictates survival of the fittest is not simply acceptable but necessary for the continuation of the species. So not only is murder no longer objectively wrong but it is factually good. It would simply be getting rid of the weak. Genocide would not only be perfectly acceptable (overpopulation, getting rid of the weak, only the strongest survive) but it would be factually good.

So because humans have a moral code that means god exists? Sorry but I think you overestimate the human moral code. Most basic morals humans apply are simple applied as a way to keep society and large groups of people functioning. Over time our moral code got more and more complex like our society.
You might not know this bu Chimps and other Primates also have a moral code, not as complex as our moral code but still it shows a lot of resemblence to our moral code.

Originally posted by clickclick
Now as we know, humans contradict that stuff every day (this is inclusive atheists). If any person were to really adhere to those beliefs, they would be the first. Atheism is not as simple as not believing in God, there are a lot of things that go along with it.

I can assure you that there is evidence for a creator and far more than one thing either. We have the intellect to comprehend these issues because we aren’t mere animals. We exist not because random chance dicated it but because something created it. The laws of nature exist because they were enacted, there is no reason for them to exist otherwise. An incredible being incomprehensible intelligence created life, not random chance which cant even create a car unaided.

We don't know anything about him. And that's the problem.
Big Bang is not a God. God=spiritual power...
But it is also possible that there is no God. Nobody knows.
Therefore, we can't define what God is. Debate close, unless God appeared in front of you. But let me doubt it.

Fire

Clickclick is simply relating a couple of interesting facts or understandings that point to a creator. While his argument may be weak, it certainly doesn't DISPROVE a creator in your favor! There is a vast amount of information regarding the essence of a creator. You must divorce yourself from the nonsense (people's philosophy) and take genuine steps in understanding all facts and circumstances before making decisions. A topic of this magitude DOES NOT have simple answers. You must study the facts! There is no other way. You cannot rely on your own philosophy. The world is bigger than your small little mind!

I've been studying for about 4 to 6 months referring to books on evolution and secular history, and my finds are truely amazing! Surely, I don't present facts myself and I'm not trying to. I'm simply saying that you obviously haven't studied and that you should.

More facts point to a creator... not the other way around. You would know this if you'd did your homework.

I'm curious, what FACTS do you have that support God (or a creator) being false? Time for you to speak.

was I talking to you?

If you would have read all my posts Usho you would have known that I never stated god does not exist, I simply do not believe in god. There is a difference. Also the entire point of proving something is proving that exists not that it does not exist. that's the entire base of science

I'm sorry, however interesting this is, this does not proof the existence of a deity in anyway. It is not because we do not know the cause of the universe that it has none. It is not because we do not know the existence of the laws of nature that they were created by random chance-which is not the same thing as saying they were made by a deity. This, to me, sounds like someone using human ignorance as a way to proof god. kinda like "Cause if we can't explain it it most be god" I don't buy that.
So life without purpose is contradicted because people crie when somebody dies and so forth. I think people do not know the purpose of life, let alone know if there is or is not a purpose to life. But this does not conflict with people forming emotional bands with eachother and thus feeling sad when that person is gone.

According to the theory there is not supposed to be a cause for the universe, if there was then that points to a creator. Its supposed to be the result of uncaused random chance. Now the universe having a begining is based on evidence. Im following a logical pattern here to draw some conclusions.

We know that creators can create, it is logical to believe that something that came into being was with cause. It is dictated by the law of cause and effect. What do we know that came into being without cause? Or what has random chance created that was unaided by outside forces?

As to the laws of nature, same thing. We have proof that laws can be enacted, when has random chance created laws? Why would any laws get created let alone numerous ones? Science can search for a million years and that isnt going to be explained. Its certainly wasnt a necessity and random chance would bring chaos not laws for order.

As to life without purpose, the point I was making was that most people dont treat it that way. Even people who purport to have that belief do not. We all treat life like it has meaning, save for maybe a psychopath here and there. Why should any one life matter? Emotional attachments to meaningless, purposeless creatures? It doesnt follow.

So because humans have a moral code that means god exists? Sorry but I think you overestimate the human moral code. Most basic morals humans apply are simple applied as a way to keep society and large groups of people functioning. Over time our moral code got more and more complex like our society.
You might not know this bu Chimps and other Primates also have a moral code, not as complex as our moral code but still it shows a lot of resemblence to our moral code.

Again you use the lack of scientific knowledge to explain the existence of god. Which for me aint any proof at all, sorry.

I am not using a lack of scientific knowledge, I am using scientific knowledge + evidence and it is congruent with what im saying. Now when I talk about the moral code, that doesnt mean that everyone adheres to them or that everybody is in agreement. However this isnt because moral law does not exist but because people have differing beliefs. Everybody isnt right. If somebody has moral relativistic beliefs, there should be no laws enacted on the basis of morals. If there is no true right then there is no true wrong. Of course even people who claim to have moral relativistic beliefs contradict themselves. As to chimps, they along with the rest of the animal kingdom do not have moral codes. They do operate in a way that is beneficial to their existence but it has nothing to do with morals, they are acting instinctively. That is not the same with us.

I'm not really getting your reply but I'll read it a few more times when I have more time. I still doubt it's gonna change my mind tho

Originally posted by clickclick

A) What do we know that came into being without cause?
B) What has random chance created that was unaided by outside forces?
C) When has random chance created laws?
D) Why would any laws get created let alone numerous ones? Science can search for a million years and that isnt going to be explained.

A): probably nothing, but this does not mean that nothing exist, our scientific knowledge is very limited, ppl haven't been around very long and the universe and everything in it is very complex.
B): Same answer as question A)
C): No idea, but just because we do not know of it, does not mean it has never happened
D): No idea, but it doesn't mean they were created by god.

See my Logic, I'm not saying God doesn't exist or anything. I'm just saying this doesn't proof that God exists. I know this might seem like a weird type of defense but just as you believe in your faith. I believe in letting all options open.