The Question of God

Originally posted by Philosophicus
YTaker: "When talking about philosophy, surely you should use hypothetical situations. You shouldn't point out a crazy guy and say, "This human is crazy, and therefore all humans are crazy". You shouldn't say "he says that the world revolves around pie, and therefore all humanity is stupid for saying that."

First, the Adam and Eve thing. I might say, humans choose to live a life outside God's direct protection, when they used God's power to lie to God. That's freewill."

I never took a specific trait of one human being and then extend it in a generalising approach onto the whole of mankind.

Freewill? If God really gives us freewill, then he must give iot to us unconditionally, in other words, if we choose not to believe in him or to act evil, we are exercising freewill and then God is not allowed to send us to hell, for that would be a violation of our freewill and also the opposite of unconditional love, as it is an act of hate.

Infinity? Existence must be infinite - how can it be finite, then there must be something beyond that finite edge, by logical implication. Being cannot simply stop somewhere with an edge rounding of its finite form and then there's just nothing beyond that. Existence is infinite Being. Scientists believing in the general theory of relativity always try to say that the space and time was started by the big bang, but what do they suppose was before that? Space-time is not the whole of Existence, but only a part of it, if it did indeed start with a big bang. Quantum theory suggests that space-time is infinite - no beginning, middle or end. It is a mind bender to grasp this concept, but infinity is still the most 'logical' answer.

No, you tried to disprove God with an example of some guy you met in a pub. Others may disagree with that philosophy.

It's my freewill whether to ignore the law. Regardless of my freewill, and the fact that I love it, there's also justice. God, in reality, has his love enslaved to his sense of justice. If you choose to attempt murder, you can be stopped. If you choose to not believe in God, you go to hell. It's not hate, it's justice for sinning. We also have a conscience, and that must be used to moderate our free will.

No there doesn't. Space/time is curved at the edges, according to most, and isn't infinite. There's nothing. The laws of space/time are not active outside the universe. This means that instead of a sideways eight symbol, you'd put a 0 symbol to represent that. The only thing that's hard to grasp is outside the edge, where there are no dimensions. Onto some infinity stuff

1. I have infinity apples. I give you infinity.
2. I have infinity apples. I give you all the odd numbers
3. I have infinity apples. I give you all the ones higher than ten.

1. Infinity-Infinity= Zero
2. Infinity-Infinity= Infinity
3. Infinity-infinity= Ten

This makes it impossible. Anyway, here are some websites suggesting a finite universe

http://finitenature.com/finiteuniverse/
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_6.html
http://www.bigbang.org/

I like the second two best. One's scientific, one's philosophical.

One goal of Christianity and Catholicism is to restrain the will of the people. (

Originally posted by finti
OK TIME TO LEARN THAT CATHOLIC'S ARE CHRISTIANS AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SEPARATE THE TWO

I'd say if people separated Catholic, and Protestant, and breakaway sects like Jehovah’s Witness' (Who rewrote the Bible) that would be enough. Most moral differences about Christians between Protestants and Catholics are unimportant. The fact that Catholics pray to beings other than God to boost their prayer power to God isn't going to effect many discussions. If you're talking about something a Pope said, that should be called Catholic. If you're talking about the divinity of Christ, Christianity is enough.

Do Catholics call themselves Christians? Every Catholic I've ever talked to never said they were one.

Do Catholics call themselves Christians? Every Catholic I've ever talked to never said they were one.

i wanted to read it. but tis too long bag

Originally posted by Philosophicus
Existence is mere infinity - no beginning, no middle, no end and no reason/purpose.

Somewhat of a contradiction there, considering you said earlier god was impossible because he/it had either existed forever or had been created by some superior being. Basically you're describing existence in the same way many people describe god. Therefore, you're saying existence itself is impossible, which I doubt is a point you're trying to make.

Originally posted by Darth Revan
Somewhat of a contradiction there, considering you said earlier god was impossible because he/it had either existed forever or had been created by some superior being. Basically you're describing existence in the same way many people describe god. Therefore, you're saying existence itself is impossible, which I doubt is a point you're trying to make.

Incidently, if you put God in an infinite universe, he doesn't exist. He can only exist for a finite amount of time. Before he set up dimensions, there was no time. So he existed forever, otherwise known as about 14 billion years.

""If a God created the universe as a perfect work in his own image then obviously, as God is perfect, his creation must also be perfect – he did after he finished creating say that everything is good, and “good” means just that - no visible change in the development of species or cosmic constellations would have been present if everything was as “good” and “perfect” as only a God can create it.""

It was perfect...until sin entered the world via the devil. For heavens sakes, read the Bible before u make a "Biblical" arguement.

""and then saying that there is a creator even more complicated and ordered who created the universe but who doesn’t have a cause himself?!""

God is smarter than you, he doesnt need to give you a reason to someone who will never understand even if it is explained to him a million times. God reveals what is needed as stated in the Old Testament. There is more than enough evidence of his existence to where you dont need nor can u fathom the extend of his superior and omnipotent knowledge. Once more, God doesnt need a creator, the Bible (Word of God) states he was, is, and is to come. He was not only there from the beginning, he will always be and has already been.

""and if god is so omnipotent then he knows everyone before hand and if so we come to conclusion that god new hitler and new what he was going to do to the jews.

in this case was hitlers purification an act of god?""

No duh. Is everybody who proclaims to be a Christian really so ignorant. The Jews were killed for a reason. We dont know exactly what, but everything happend for a reason. Relating to what you attempted to argue in your above passage, God ALLOWED the devil to tempt Eve, therefore, allowing sin into the world. Why in the world? Well, as most people who has studied the Bible and believes knows, God is concerned with HIS GLORY more than anything else. This act of allowing sin in the world will contribute to his ultimate glorification. How? God is most glorified when we (Christians) are most satisfied in him and not the petty world. When we are in sin and have trials, we pray to God, and through his power, we overcome it. By trusting in him, evil is overthrown. This also translates to missions. When one is martyred for the glory of God. "I cannot explain my fathers death except through divine intervention" said one young boy when his father was matyred in Sudan. HE KNEW that it was God at work for his glory. What was he saying? God killed my dad. God killed Jesus.............

All things for good. God killed Jesus so taht we have the sacrifice we need to be able to enter the gates of heaven.

Blaspheme all you want, judgement day is closer than you think.

Blaspheme all you want, judgement day is closer than you think.

Creationism stands in direct opposition to Evolutionism. Just by studying the definitions of the two words: Create and Evolve, we can see the utter distinction in their meaning: Create means to create something new out of nothing and rendering it into a final, polished and finished form, comparable to a work of art; Evolve means simply the reverse: it implies change, constant alteration or development into another form. If a God created the universe as a perfect work in his own image then obviously, as God is perfect, his creation must also be perfect – he did after he finished creating say that everything is good, and “good” means just that - no visible change in the development of species or cosmic constellations would have been present if everything was as “good” and “perfect” as only a God can create it. And so, when we understand this we can see that there is no God, as there is evolution all around us – everything seems imperfect and to struggle all around us – things are changing shape and new species are appearing constantly!

Create doesnt mean to create something new out of nothing but in this instance it does. As is implied by evolution, non life arising from life, singularity coming into existance sans cause and creating the universe sans cause. I dont believe persay that man was supposed to be perfect though, man was good in spirit (untainted). That is what it means. It also states in the bible that everything was created good etc but once since entered into the world things changed.

That was one of the weakest and I do mean weakest, attempts at arguing for evolution. I can only hope that that was a joke on your part. Oh btw, what new species are appearing constantly?

Moreover, even if one argues that everything seems too much planned and mathematical to be a mere result of chance and that there simply must be a higher dimensional intelligent being that created everything, the weight is just shifted. Now with God as the cause of everything the problem of plan; order; origin and meaning has just shifted onto the shoulders of God. Where does God come from? Did he also have a God who created him? Where does his order and existence come from? What ever the dimension of God is, it still must have a cause. And if God has a cause, he fails to be a God anymore.

How would plan etc be a problem for God? Of course God didnt need to be created, the implication is silly. As we know in our universe, the cause of law and effect exists. For something to come into existence, it needs a cause. God is eternal.

Again, this was another one of the weakest arguments ive ever heard for evolution.

click click all though you bring a strong arguments this isnt about evolution but you cant see there isnt evolution because thats saying you dont believe things can adapt but your clinging to religious cliches
its understandble that he has not said the absolute truth because there is no absolute truth but he has hit the tip of the iceberg you cant just say hes wrong though his theory is just as plausible as yours yes iam saying god is a theory until ive seen legitimate proof and not some bible bullshit i will bow down and kiss gods ass

that post i made above was of another because philo brings a strong argument and i wanted to pass it along to others and that was just an answer i got.

also iam god for i can create and destroy just as you are god.
people are ever changing the natural hieght a long time ago was 5 foot it is now to 5'9-6 foot so you cant say evolution cannot be for we are ever changing ever adapting

the other post i meant is way up at the top not my opinion of click click so read that to understand

this isnt about evolution but you cant see there isnt evolution because thats saying you dont believe things can adapt but your clinging to religious cliches its understandble that he has not said the absolute truth because there is no absolute truth but he has hit the tip of the iceberg you cant just say hes wrong though his theory is just as plausible as yours yes iam saying god is a theory until ive seen legitimate proof and not some bible bullshit i will bow down and kiss gods ass

Well, I didnt say that microevolution doesn't exist, we know it does. However, there is another type of evolution that is theorized by evolutionists. It is known as macroevolution. It is not based on evidence, it is merely conjecture that is being used in an attempt to oppose creationism.

Snakes to dogs, elephants to people and so on. We have seen species become extinct and so on but where is the legitimate (non fraudulent) proof that macroevolution took place? People are and have been fed excessive amounts of mendacities. Students are being taught stuff that we know is fraudulent.

Anyway, for me the whole evolution vs creationism debate becomes tiresome, it is unfruitful. I find it more practical (in the interest of having a fruitful discussion) to have a philosiphical debate on the existence of morals and so on.

understandable both opinions are plausible and those are just two think of all the theories that havent been brought to the mainstream

oh and thanks for not acting like an ass philo and finti go beserk when they dont like what they hear
oh and the new species deal he doesnt mean entire new species just new adaptations of said species

Brandino and Arena host - you two seem to be the only ones here who correctly understand what I attempted to convey. For the rest who posted here - please think clearly about what I've written and think again before you make incorrect assumptions.

Last note on infinity - Existence has to be infinite, to suggest it isn't is simply irrational, because if you postulate a finite existence then what do you suppose is beyond that finite entity? - there must be something beyond it and that translates into infinity.

thanks im just starting to think about philosophy and iam very yound tell me do i have potential

Brandino and Arena host - you two seem to be the only ones here who correctly understand what I attempted to convey. For the rest who posted here - please think clearly about what I've written and think again before you make incorrect assumptions.

Last note on infinity - Existence has to be infinite, to suggest it isn't is simply irrational, because if you postulate a finite existence then what do you suppose is beyond that finite entity? - there must be something beyond it and that translates into infinity.

Dont pat yourself on the back too hard there, you have no clue what you are talking about. Existence is infinite? The existence of what?

The universe? We know thats not the case. Ive read many theories on this one, truth is though that they all amount to illogical conclusions save for one.

the existance of time and space my confused friend