The Evolution of the Horror Genre

Ah, at last some intellectual debate about horror, it warms the heart. I agree with what your saying cinemaddiction, all these films do have the same visuals, but i did enjoy them and do respect them, respect which i admit is waning, but they are not really unique or original anymore, perhaps ringu and audition are.With regard to the popularity of horror , we have a different market in britain to america where horror is not continually succesfull, but i meant credibilty as opposed to popularity. But i was making the same points that you are, that horror always falls back on what s succesfull and is proved that will make money, rehashing the concepts over and over, one of the points i was making was that hopefully it will not fully regress back to mindless nonsense. That the originalitiy and influence of one or two of these films will have a positive influence on the future of the genre. I also agree that making an original and credible horror film is probably one of the most difficult to make( along with comedy, which is probably more difficult), and that is why there has only been about 20 original and credible in the history of the genre. Maybe the title of the thread was a misnomer and betrayed the point i was making, but I was all high and stuff

originally posted by cinemaddiction

"When people don't stop and think about what they're boasting as incredibly ingenuitive and unique, you're wrongfully praising a redundant and stale genre. I've been down this road before, but have you ever seen the pattern in Japanese horror? The Ring? Ringu? Ju-On? The Grudge? St. John's Wart? Shiriku? The Eye? All movies with ghosts and girls with long black hair and jump scares. "

I believe some of these films are original, unique and very good, of course the market has been flooded, and many of the films that are coming out now feature the same girl with long black hair and are very similar, this does not mean that the originators are not excellent influential films, sure people are sick of them now but the first few were classics and i bet you loved them at the time. Anty way i was refering to the period from the release of scream until the first influx of japhorror back in 2002, not the current state of affairs with the numerous american remakes. It seems that you think you have the definitive opinion and that everyone else is stupid, naive and wrong,and cant see the things you see, i do see them but that does not detract from the greatness of the earlier films, you seem to have a very superior and snobbish attitude, and I bet you always like to prove your right, i think arrogance can also cloud peoples judgements

I shouldnt have said "I bet you always like to prove your right", because that is perfectly fair, what i meant to say was that you like to prove that you think you know more than others, that youre opinions are more informed and cynical than other peoples opinions.

Originally posted by papabeard

I believe some of these films are original, unique and very good, of course the market has been flooded, and many of the films that are coming out now feature the same girl with long black hair and are very similar, this does not mean that the originators are not excellent influential films.

Sure people are sick of them now but the first few were classics and i bet you loved them at the time. Anyway I was refering to the period from the release of scream until the first influx of japanese horror back in 2002, not the current state of affairs with the numerous american remakes.

It seems that you think you have the definitive opinion and that everyone else is stupid, naive and wrong, and cant see the things you see, i do see them but that does not detract from the greatness of the earlier films, you seem to have a very superior and snobbish attitude, and I bet you always like to prove your right, i think arrogance can also cloud peoples judgements

That's perfectly fine to believe that they are original and unique, if you're referring to the very first movie of its kind. That's natural. The copycats, however, aren't. I never claimed otherwise as you never singled them out to begin with.

As for loving the originals? No. They've been out for less than 3 years, and having seen the originals before the remakes, save "The Ring", I can honestly say I depised them. They weren't effective, IMO. It was more style over substance, and what little appeal it may have had gets lost when the bandwagon gears up, it gets overrated, and then come the copycats.

Between 1996 and 2002, horror has a had a handful of inventive movies, just with piss poor execution, many of which were cast with droves of teeny boppers, in lieu of singular hot chicks. Reason being is because "Scream" desconstructed and re-invented the genre all in one fell swoop. The only viable franchise out of that time span was "Final Destination". There were some movies here and there that were creative and fun like "Strangeland", but not enough to merit labeling it the start of an evolution.

There's no such thing as a definitive opinion, in all honesty. I've just got strong convictions, as I tend to believe I know what I'm talking about. That said, in the horror genre, there aren't that many people that are elitists like myself, and will subject themselves to the monotonous dreck of the genre. Many of those people and their opinions, when they praise apparently overhyped and basic movies, have opinions that don't carry much weight or share the same validity as say, mine. Only because they've saturated themselves, movie wise.

Again, you're singling out the original works, which I never said anything about, and using that against me, which makes me think you're not reading everything I said, or trying to make me look bad. Superior and snobbish, no. Educated, self disciplined, and a "smart" horror fan, unquestionably. Arrogance can't cloud someones judgment if they know what they're talking about, and have a track record to prove it. Now, if I were arrogant, you'd have a case. I'm just opinionated, and there's a difference.

"When <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> don't stop and think about what they're boasting as incredibly ingenuitive and unique, you're wrongfully praising a redundant and stale genre."

I never referred to them as ingenuitive and unique, it was you who applied that to what i was saying, which makes me think you're not reading everthing i say, and also The japanese horror industry was only a small part of what I was saying.

You then deride my opinion as you feel that i am not as knowledgeable on the genre as you, so therefore am uniformed, that sounds like arrogance to me, and so does this,

"That said, in the horror genre, there aren't that many <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> that are elitists like myself, and will subject themselves to the monotonous dreck of the genre. Many of those <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> and their opinions, when they praise apparently overhyped and basic <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=movies&v=56">movies</a>, have opinions that don't carry much weight or share the same validity as say, mine. Only because they've saturated themselves, <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=movie&v=56">movie</a> wise."

and so does this,

"Superior and snobbish, no. Educated, self disciplined, and a "smart" horror fan, unquestionably. Arrogance can't cloud someones judgment if they know what they're talking about, and have a track record to prove it. Now, if I were arrogant, you'd have a case. I'm just opinionated, and there's a difference. "

im not trying to make you look bad , you're doing a good <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=job&v=56">job</a> of that yourself. You think that you know more about horror than me, and that my opinion is uniformed and naive, just because i like something that you dont. I too have watched alot of horror movies and love the genre and feel i know a considerable amount, but to denounce someones opinion based on your percieved superior knowledge of a subject is indeed arrogance

Also you said "but not enough to merit labeling it the start of an evolution." one mutation is all it takes for an evolutionary step and thats what scream was, i never said it was a panacea, but there has definelty been an evolution since the advent of Scream.

Also whats this track record you referring to?

So are you saying that people who watch alot of movies, their perceptions of what is good becomes altered as they have watched so much crap that any film that exhibits the slightest bit of intelligence and/or craftsmanship will be regarded as a masterpiece because they are used to watching sub-standard films that are beneath you?

Cry me a river, guy. You're taking personal a generalized opinion, which in most cases, holds true for the majority of the fans of the genre. You did indeed however claim that J-Horror was unique, in that general discussion.

Not once did I "deride" or "denounce" yours or anyone elses opinion. I have yet to single you out, in fact. I'm confident in my knowledge? Big deal. If I had indeed made you my guinea pig, you would know it, but I'm not one for personal attacks, everyone likes to turn my generalizations on themselves. IN a nutshell, what I am saying is true for the most part. The majority of horror fans aren't incredibly selective.

As for this dead horse were beating called a "horror evolution", it doesn't exist. "Scream" was a step, and "Urban Legend" and "IKWYDLS" were two giant leaps back. Had "Scream" been anything more than a breakthrough horror, which is all it was, you may have a case, you know? Fact of the matter is, horror has had some good flicks, but is a genre that's backpeddling.

So are you saying that people who watch alot of movies, their perceptions of what is good becomes altered as they have watched so much crap that any film that exhibits the slightest bit of intelligence and/or craftsmanship will be regarded as a masterpiece because they are used to watching sub-standard films that are beneath you?

In Horror, it holds true a lot of the time because you become jaded, and you eventually lower your standards.

To elaborate on that last comment;

So are you saying that people who watch alot of movies, their perceptions of what is good becomes altered as they have watched so much crap that any film that exhibits the slightest bit of intelligence and/or craftsmanship will be regarded as a masterpiece because they are used to watching sub-standard films that are beneath you?

People who watch whatever the genre puts out, in my study/opinion, do indeed have a somewhat skewed perception of what "good" horror is. They force themselves to tolerate tons of literal shit filmmaking in hopes they'll stumble upon something totally fresh. When thet doesn't happen, films like "Cabin Fever" are then accepted as such, and that's not right. I said before, I'm an elitist. I'm a horror fan through and through, but the genre sucks. It's in a horrible funk. While I may not be above anyone, and nobody below me, I pride myself on being selectively permiable as to what I rent.

As for the aforementioned track record, ask anyone here. They know I'm not full of shit when it comes to movies. I'm brutally honest, opinionated, and I know what I am talking about for the most part. They'll also tell you that I am horribly misunderstood, and everyone likes to cry foul whenever they confront me. Misconception and misunderstanding are my life story, and I thank God for the people that do see where I am coming from.

65% of the time, Cine is right every time.

Again i did not originally refer to these films as unique, you brought up that argument -

You said,
"When people don't stop and think about what they're boasting as incredibly ingenuitive and unique, you're wrongfully praising a redundant and stale genre"

then a couple of posts later i replied -

"I believe SOME of these films are original, unique and very good, of course the market has been flooded, and many of the films that are coming out now feature the same girl with long black hair and are very similar, this does not mean that the ORIGINATORS are not excellent influential films"

I was refering to the first movies of this type, and did specify this.

It just seems that your misunderstanding the points I was making,as you seem to be repeating them back to me, as if I was stating the opposite.

Also i wasnt heralding Cabin Fever as a masterpiece, i was just saying that it was ok, and exhibited humour and intelligence, which i believe to be a direct result of Wes Craven's Scream.

Id be interested to hear what your favourite horror films are?

Anyway, Peace Blood!afro

Originally posted by Zilverz
65% of the time, Cine is right every time.

Try 85%. Honestly.

Originally posted by papabeard
Again i did not originally refer to these films as unique, you brought up that argument -

You said,
"When people don't stop and think about what they're boasting as incredibly ingenuitive and unique, you're wrongfully praising a redundant and stale genre"

then a couple of posts later i replied -

"I believe SOME of these films are original, unique and very good, of course the market has been flooded, and many of the films that are coming out now feature the same girl with long black hair and are very similar, this does not mean that the ORIGINATORS are not excellent influential films"

I was refering to the first movies of this type, and did specify this.

It just seems that your misunderstanding the points I was making,as you seem to be repeating them back to me, as if I was stating the opposite.

Also i wasnt heralding Cabin Fever as a masterpiece, i was just saying that it was ok, and exhibited humour and intelligence, which i believe to be a direct result of Wes Craven's Scream.

Id be interested to hear what your favourite horror films are?

Anyway, Peace Blood!afro

I never said you did claim them to be unique or original. I said when "people", as a collective, which they do. As for your "ORIGINATORS quote, I replied..

That's perfectly fine to believe that they are original and unique, if you're referring to the very first movie of its kind.

...meaning I read what you said, and comprehend, but still disagree. Just because a movie is influential, doesn't mean everyone has to like it, or that it's quality entertainment.

I also know you didn't say anything about "Cabin Fever". These are my examples, the likes of which I never pinned on you. You're taking these things I went out of my way to claim as generalities to heart. That said, I didn't see any influence of "Scream" in "Cabin Fever". Eli Roth may have been inspired by Wes Craven overall to become a filmmaker, but I'd say it was more Quentin Tarantino, given how big a hack Roth is, with his film of "homages", one of which wasn't "Scream".

As for favorite horror movies, I don't have many.

* Dead Trilogy
* Hellraiser 1 - 3
* Dead Alive
* 28 Days Later
* Alien
* Carrie
* Evil Dead
* Ginger Snaps Trilogy
* Jaws
* Scream
* Se7en
* Texas Chainsaw Masssacre
* Nightmare 1
* Friday 1
* Halloween 1 - 2

quote:
Originally posted by Zilverz
"65% of the time, Cine is right every time. "

Originally posted by cinemaddiction
"Try 85%. Honestly. "

I do hope you were joking when you posted this.

Also i'd be interested to see what you do to you "guinea pigs" .

The horror films you posted include some of my favourites, but Ginger Snaps, dude ,come on, those are some terrible films. ( again I hope this was a joke)

You musn't be familiar with my reputation in the MDF. I'm not bragging, I have plenty of people acknowledge there that I indeed make vital points, and win virtually every debate I engage in.

As for "guinea pigs", that's just slang for people who think they know what they are talking about, and give the stupidest possible examples to back their claims. You're not one of them, if you were, you'd be in shambles right about now. It's just tough love, and brutal honesty, playa.

I wasn't joking in regards to "Ginger Snaps" either. It's incredibly unique and effective. It's also well acted, and put a whole new spin on sisterhood, the pressures of growing up, and pulled off a really interesting angle a la "Teen Wolf", just not as campy and uncredible. Your opinion is noted, but like so many others, especially regarding this film, you forgot your reasoning. My attention to detail and thorough examination on both movies I like and dislike is what tends to set me apart from the "That movie sucks" crowd. Incapable of elaboration.

Originally posted by papabeard
quote:
Originally posted by Zilverz
"65% of the time, Cine is right every time. "

Originally posted by cinemaddiction
"Try 85%. Honestly. "

Damnit cine, you didnt get my Sex Panther refference from anchorman. Sounds like it is time to rewatch it (:

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
Try 85%. Honestly.

Cine is actually banned in 11 countries

Originally posted by Zilverz
Damnit cine, you didnt get my Sex Panther refference from anchorman. Sounds like it is time to rewatch it (:

By the beard of Zeus! I just saw that a week ago, too!

Originally posted by SlipknoT
I'd say 91.3% of the time.

Can't argue with results..😬

Originally posted by Zilverz
Cine is actually banned in 11 countries

9, actually.

"It's called Sex Panther; it's illegal in nine countries. It's made from little pieces of real panther, so you know it's good."

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
As for the aforementioned track record, ask anyone here. They know I'm not full of shit when it comes to movies. I'm brutally honest, opinionated, and I know what I am talking about for the most part. .

nah man your so full of shit its not funny. your useless. no one loves you. piss off.

please dont ban me 😉

I would like to say that the only reason I am incapable of elaboration is because I saw this film a long time ago and it didnt make any impact upon me, so have not watched it again. I did observe the metaphor equating the transformation into the werewolf with the onset of puberty, and it may have had applied unique angle or slant to the story as you say, but that a good movie does not make. I remember the film being empty and devoid of any real atmoshpere, but maybe ill watch it again sometime .

I do find films about mosters, vampires zombies and werewolves to be inherently ridiculous ( with a couple of ,exceptions Alien and The Thing)and take them with a pinch of salt. These types of films can so easily go astray as it is difficult to retain credibilty due to the subject matter, and generally the special effects let the films down , unless they are handled well.

I enjoy monster movies that use a little humour and that dont take themselves too seriously, for example American Werewolf in london ,Dog Soldiers, and a favourite from my childhood Silver Bullet.

No one asked but here are my favourite horror films =

Cannibal Holocaust
Man BiteDog
Psycho
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
Saw
Seven
The Shining
The Wicker Man
Friday the 13th Part 1
The Thing
Halloween
Alien
ANOES part 1
Ju-On
Ringu
Scream

With special mention for Shaun of the Dead.

Easy

first-slasher pics
Now-ghost,spirit pics