Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Why's that?
1. While the Supes of today is a force to be reckoned with, THAT was Byrne's Supes who was no where NEAR as impressive. He didn't have the uber strength feats to his credit now, he didn't have T-Vo, and he wasn't even capable of hitting lightspeed. This guy ranked as LOW herald level AT BEST(and that's if you're being generous).
2. That JLA was pretty much second string and the three major players fought like absolute morons. Guy Gardener was the biggest threat on that team, and he was taken out of the fight in a matter of seconds because he flew up and tried to take DD on face to face without knowing what he was dealing with. Maxima and Bloodwynd were also threats, but both not only fought like morons, they were absent for most of the fighting. The JLA charged in like morons when they didn't know what they were dealing with, and THAT was the reason DD was able to take them all down. The samething has happened when they tried to rush Deathstroke(including Kyle, who's far more impressive than Guy).
Sentry has proven to be stronger than Thor by a far amount(barring the PIS helicarrier incident) who is in turn stronger than Supes of that day. That means it's WELL withing his capability to put DOS down, especially in a forum battle where he'll be going all out, and there won't be any bystanders to distract him the way they did Supes.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I know. and Sentry has a chance at taking down DOS DD. I'm saying, that if he does succeed once or twice, DD will have adapted to the point where Sentry won't be able to do a thing to him.
Originally posted by darthgooberI thought that was Dan Jurgens who wrote that story...
Because DOS DD's feats where putting down Supes and the JLA. Now while those feats sound REALLY impressive at first glance, there's just a couple of things you have to think about...1. While the Supes of today is a force to be reckoned with, THAT was Byrne's Supes who was no where NEAR as impressive. He didn't have the uber strength feats to his credit now, he didn't have T-Vo, and he wasn't even capable of hitting lightspeed. This guy ranked as LOW herald level AT BEST(and that's if you're being generous).
2. That JLA was pretty much second string and the three major players fought like absolute morons. Guy Gardener was the biggest threat on that team, and he was taken out of the fight in a matter of seconds because he flew up and tried to take DD on face to face without knowing what he was dealing with. Maxima and Bloodwynd were also threats, but both not only fought like morons, they were absent for most of the fighting. The JLA charged in like morons when they didn't know what they were dealing with, and THAT was the reason DD was able to take them all down. The samething has happened when they tried to rush Deathstroke(including Kyle, who's far more impressive than Guy).
Sentry has proven to be stronger than Thor by a far amount(barring the PIS helicarrier incident) who is in turn stronger than Supes of that day. That means it's WELL withing his capability to put DOS down, especially in a forum battle where he'll be going all out, and there won't be any bystanders to distract him the way they did Supes.
Also, written by the same person, Superman stood up to Hunter Prey Doomsday, while Darkseid was discarded like a piece of shit.
Or, written by the same person, Superman stood up to Doomsday, while Orion and Manhunter were beaten easily. Or, Orion, Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Flash, and Martian Manhunter, were easily beaten.
Basically in the same author's opinion, Superman>Darkseid.
Superman>Orion, and Manhunter.
Superman>Or, Orion, Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Flash, and Martian Manhunter.
So, how can you say he was hardly impressive?
Why does he need T-Vo, or to break lightspeed (I'm not even going to look to see if he did it back then).
Of course the JLA wasn't as good, but that wasn't the point. The point is that, Superman would have never beaten Doomsday if it wasn't for so many distractions, and cheap shots (Superman delivered a hefty amount in that comic). It was hardly a fair fight, or an accurate fight, and it was shown that Doomsday was stronger than Superman by far.
I really doubt Thor was stronger than Superman of that day, and I don't really see where Sentry is by far stronger than Thor (if you ignore Void, since Sentry hasn't exactly replicated his feats).
The only thing Sentry really has on Thor, is the AM battle, and Sentry hasn't really proven consistency with that power either (since the only time Sentry lifted something is PIS...).
If anything Doomsday was being distracted. Superman got help, Doomsday got attacked.
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
I thought that was Dan Jurgens who wrote that story...
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Also, written by the same person, Superman stood up to Hunter Prey Doomsday, while Darkseid was discarded like a piece of shit.
Or, written by the same person, Superman stood up to Doomsday, while Orion and Manhunter were beaten easily. Or, Orion, Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Flash, and Martian Manhunter, were easily beaten.
Basically in the same author's opinion, Superman>Darkseid.
Superman>Orion, and Manhunter.
Superman>Or, Orion, Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Flash, and Martian Manhunter.So, how can you say he was hardly impressive?
They where beaten LATER, and both Supes and DD were more powerful at that point. The ongoing Supes theme is that he's continuously getting stronger and stronger due to the solar energy building up in his body. As I said, the Supes of today would absolutely TRASH the Supes of that day. DD beat those other people AFTER he evolved and became more powerful, so that's hardly a reflection on the DOS version. Remember, that's the same Supes that got KO'd by the exploding gas station. If you can come up with some major feats of Supes from BEFORE his death that's one thing, but his being portrayed as being more powerful than a DS avatar(thank God for rectons) AFTER the fact is irrelevant to Supes during the DOS saga.
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Why does he need T-Vo, or to break lightspeed (I'm not even going to look to see if he did it back then).
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Of course the JLA wasn't as good, but that wasn't the point. The point is that, Superman would have never beaten Doomsday if it wasn't for so many distractions, and cheap shots (Superman delivered a hefty amount in that comic). It was hardly a fair fight, or an accurate fight, and it was shown that Doomsday was stronger than Superman by far.
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
I really doubt Thor was stronger than Superman of that day, and I don't really see where Sentry is by far stronger than Thor (if you ignore Void, since Sentry hasn't exactly replicated his feats).
The only thing Sentry really has on Thor, is the AM battle, and Sentry hasn't really proven consistency with that power either (since the only time Sentry lifted something is PIS...).
As for Thor being stronger than Supes of that day, I think it's pretty safe to say that he was. Why? Simple...
1. Thor was shown to be just under Supes in strength in the cannon JLA/Avengers, and Supes now is a lot stronger than Supes then.
2. Unless I'm mistaken Thor's lifting the Midgard Serpent trumps any strength feat of Supes at that point.
Originally posted by darthgoober
As far as lifting feats go, DD had approximately NONE of note, so Sentry's not really lacking in that regard for this particular fight. And if you take Sentry's low end strength feat(the helicarrier) and average it out with high end strength strength feat(overloading AM) the result is still higher than the strength of that era's Supes.
I'm not sure how overloading AM results in higher strength than Byrne Superman...even of that era. Care to explain that a little better? Thanks.
Keep in mind that Byrne Supes still had some decent strengh and durability feats...and DD's feats before he met Superman were impressive in themselves.
Originally posted by darthgoober
As for Thor being stronger than Supes of that day, I think it's pretty safe to say that he was. Why? Simple...1. Thor was shown to be just under Supes in strength in the cannon JLA/Avengers, and Supes now is a lot stronger than Supes then.
2. Unless I'm mistaken Thor's lifting the Midgard Serpent trumps any strength feat of Supes at that point.
1. Thor was Superman's counterpart in JLA/Avengers...but I didn't see anything that made them physically that close... Thor's best hits were with Mjolnir (as expected of course) while Supermans were simply punches.
2. The whole midgard feat is dubious. Seriously. A wooded fishing pole and a fishing line were able to hold the serpent? If I remember correctly on another occasion...the midgard serpent was disguised as a cat and Thor couldn't even lift it's paw.
Even DOS Superman was still able to KO Mongul while weakened..and he's in Thors level of strength.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I'm not sure how overloading AM results in higher strength than Byrne Superman...even of that era. Care to explain that a little better? Thanks.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Keep in mind that Byrne Supes still had some decent strengh and durability feats...and DD's feats before he met Superman were impressive in themselves.
And aside from beating on a sub stander JLA that fought like morons(a feat replicated by Deathstroke), what impressive feats does DOS DD have?
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
1. Thor was Superman's counterpart in JLA/Avengers...but I didn't see anything that made them physically that close... Thor's best hits were with Mjolnir (as expected of course) while Supermans were simply punches.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
2. The whole midgard feat is dubious. Seriously. A wooded fishing pole and a fishing line were able to hold the serpent? If I remember correctly on another occasion...the midgard serpent was disguised as a cat and Thor couldn't even lift it's paw.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Even DOS Superman was still able to KO Mongul while weakened..and he's in Thors level of strength.
Originally posted by darthgooberSo, 8 years after, he was still functioning at the same level.
He did, but Supes was still pretty much functioning at Byrne levels, which is why I labeled him Byrne Supes.
Since he was pretty much functioning at the same level.
Originally posted by darthgooberHunter Prey was a year later, and Superman: The Doomsday Wars was 6 years later...
They where beaten LATER, and both Supes and DD were more powerful at that point. The ongoing Supes theme is that he's continuously getting stronger and stronger due to the solar energy building up in his body. As I said, the Supes of today would absolutely TRASH the Supes of that day. DD beat those other people AFTER he evolved and became more powerful, so that's hardly a reflection on the DOS version. Remember, that's the same Supes that got KO'd by the exploding gas station. If you can come up with some major feats of Supes from BEFORE his death that's one thing, but his being portrayed as being more powerful than a DS avatar(thank God for rectons) AFTER the fact is irrelevant to Supes during the DOS saga.
The Supes of today just got off of having no powers for a year...
And if we followed him getting more powerful each year... he shouldn't even be as powerful...
I'm not trying to reflect on the DOS Doomsday, I'm trying to reflect on Superman.
Considering 6 years where at that time he was the same strength (following the time frame in comic), he was able to stand up to someone who trashed a real league.
So, basically, just because Superman has one showing of low durability (getting KO'ed by that explosion), that should reflect on his entire run around those years?
The Darkseid thing happened a year later...
Originally posted by darthgooberOne problem here, Superman has also gotten depowered (red sun radiation), and even ran through a red sun, which completely rid him of powers for a year.
He didn't(I asked batdude about it a while back). And the lightspeed thing is just an indication of power IMO. Now days Supes can go WAY faster than lightspeed, which is many times faster than he could at the time(meaning that he's many times more powerful since ALL of his abilities have been increased due to increased solar absorption).
It's hardly fair to say he's been getting steadily more powerful.
Originally posted by darthgooberNeither was Doomsday.
Supes wasn't going anywhere NEAR all out for the majority of that fight, and DD was continually getting stronger. Once it came down to kill or be killed, Supes did just fine against DD despite the fact that Supes was in worse condition. Where the JLA distractions originally...yes. But they were also pretty much completely ineffective due to the fact that they were fighting like morons, and Supes didn't get in THAT many cheap shots due to the JLA distracting DD and actually took a couple from his teammates as well.
Ineffective... maybe, but it was still distractions, and it was still help.
Supes got plenty of cheapshots.
Originally posted by darthgooberI'm not saying that, I just find it weird how Sentry's only lifting feat is pis, and his highest/higher feat is completely acceptable.
As far as lifting feats go, DD had approximately NONE of note, so Sentry's not really lacking in that regard for this particular fight. And if you take Sentry's low end strength feat(the helicarrier) and average it out with high end strength strength feat(overloading AM) the result is still higher than the strength of that era's Supes.As for Thor being stronger than Supes of that day, I think it's pretty safe to say that he was. Why? Simple...
1. Thor was shown to be just under Supes in strength in the cannon JLA/Avengers, and Supes now is a lot stronger than Supes then.
2. Unless I'm mistaken Thor's lifting the Midgard Serpent trumps any strength feat of Supes at that point.
One problem here...
Captain Mar-Vell was alive in JLA/Avengers, which throws off the entire timeline.
And if we take it as canon, and go back to when Mar-Vell was dead...
It's nearly impossible to predict a time on that.
Plus, Superman was shown as a superior to Thor's hammer blows if that's the case.
Thor's lifting of the snake also trumps any strength feat of Hulk... and we all know how that turns out...
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
So, 8 years after, he was still functioning at the same level.
So, why in Doomsday Wars, was that unacceptable?Since he was pretty much functioning at the same level.
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Hunter Prey was a year later, and Superman: The Doomsday Wars was 6 years later...
How powerful can he get in these small time frames, plus it wasn't even an occurring theme that he got more powerful every year back then...The Supes of today just got off of having no powers for a year...
And if we followed him getting more powerful each year... he shouldn't even be as powerful...I'm not trying to reflect on the DOS Doomsday, I'm trying to reflect on Superman.
Considering 6 years where at that time he was the same strength (following the time frame in comic), he was able to stand up to someone who trashed a real league.So, basically, just because Superman has one showing of low durability (getting KO'ed by that explosion), that should reflect on his entire run around those years?
The Darkseid thing happened a year later...
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
One problem here, Superman has also gotten depowered (red sun radiation), and even ran through a red sun, which completely rid him of powers for a year.It's hardly fair to say he's been getting steadily more powerful....
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Neither was Doomsday.Ineffective... maybe, but it was still distractions, and it was still help.
Supes got plenty of cheap shots....
And would you like to see the cheap shots Supes got in due to the JLA distracting him...
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9228/deathofsupermantpb093bp9.jpg
...and that's it. He got in several more cheap shots when he'd run off to save civilians and then catch up to DD again, but that's the only time DD was actually busy with a JLA member when Supes hit him. So they weren't really anymore effective against DD as a distraction for Supes than they were directly. The ONLY member to actually do anything of note to DD other than Supes was Maxima. And SHE hit DD a grand total of two times before being taken out of the fight. And you know what else? She hit Supes once too so she wasn't ALL that big of a help(in fact it was her who ko'd Supes with the gas station as well, so she actually did more harm than good).
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
I'm not saying that, I just find it weird how Sentry's only lifting feat is pis, and his highest/higher feat is completely acceptable
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
One problem here...
Captain Mar-Vell was alive in JLA/Avengers, which throws off the entire timeline.And if we take it as canon, and go back to when Mar-Vell was dead...
It's nearly impossible to predict a time on that.
Plus, Superman was shown as a superior to Thor's hammer blows if that's the case.
Thor's lifting of the snake also trumps any strength feat of Hulk... and we all know how that turns out...
And Thor's feat doesn't trump EVERY strength feat of the Hulks, because Hulk has things like destroying that asteroid, and keeping those two spheres separated(I( don't remember the details on this one), and deflecting that huge blast with a thunderclap 😉 .
Sorry to just jump in but Superman after he came back to life came back stronger. He says he's gotten stronger during one issue when he fights Lobo and throws the large ship from orbit. I think he may have said it in other issues but I don't remember except that one. He was no where near as strong as he is now back when he killed Doomsday.
I believe Sentry could beat DOS Doomsday along with Rex but that's it. DOS Doomsday does have some big feats before getting to Earth which makes me wonder how Superman actually killed him but if Superman could Sentry could since DOS Doomsday could be killed by a large amount of Strength. And Sentry may had trouble with a Helicarrier, and I don't know how big it was but in Doomsday Wars Superman had trouble stopping a 747, I believe it was, and he was stronger then when he fought Doomsday in DOS. Though in his defense I guess he was rocked after being hit by Doomsday w/Brainiac's brain and went through the wing of the plane.
Though I would like to know if all of Darkseid's defeats were retconned to be Avatars what about when he and Doomsday first met when he wasn't actually beaten but he didn't win? Before Doomsday got to Earth and died.
Two things.
1. The Sentry feat isn't a low-feat. He isn't 'weak' , he's realistic. Confused ? Let me explain. Superman has a passive ability know as 'Tactile Telekinesis' (the stuff Superboy had) which allows him to lift any object no matter where he's lifting it from. Sentry on the other hand doesn't. He's struggling to hold the Heli-carrier and make sure it doesn't break/tear in half from the angle/point he's holding it at.
2. On Superman getting stronger : Clark is a pc. His overall space capacity get's routinely upgraded. The amount of stuff he has increases thus.
Doomsday 8/10
Trying to determine supermans feats at a certain time in comic history is just making excuses IMO, no offense! but it just does not work for me,it works as a writer for making comic books,but the rules on these fights seem in favor for doomsday
Now when superman describes Doomsday's speed he means in battle and maybe running, and supes has many speedblitzing feats that involve battle, show me one feat from Sentry thats not FLYING and has him speedblitzing foes
