Shang Chi vs Batman

Started by lifeisaglich4 pages
lifeisaglich Senior Member

Who is val and daxamite?

Originally posted by Never
Interesting read. Somehow, despite his being "the world's most accomplished and skilled martial artist," Prometheus was still able to effortlessly torch him?

Now this is funny

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batgirl 50, Bruce doesnt want to fight so it is mostly him blocking Cass' attacks but he lands a few hits. If Cass was a Batman villian and not his friend (or what ever) I would put money him him feeding it to her.\

EDIT: Onyx can hit Batgirl... and shes no Batman


When Batgirl learnt how to talk she lost her ability to read body movement. She was still a master martial artist, just not at the level she used to be. This was when Batman was landing afew hits agaist her (and this is also when he took her off the team until she could sort this out). Batgil even got punched by a common hood!
After she met Shiva she got the opportunity to get her prior skills back, and she did (after making the promise to meet shiva a year after).
Batman, again, was unable to even place a hit on her.
The only time Bats could hit her was between the time she learnt to speak up to the time Shiva 'retaught' her.

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by Never
Odd, most consider Cain to be superior to Batman in martial arts h2h, falling just a tad -- and I do mean a "tad" -- below Lady Shiva, and Shiva, unless she has been retconned, has hitherto been considered to be the sterling standard of sub-metas (Karate Kid being nigh peerless in meta h2h, and only "nigh" because this is the post Crisis Karate Kid).

Batman is somewhat overrated in pure martial arts h2h imo, yet one must always allow for his resourcefulness.

In other words? He cheats.

Shang Chi defeats Batman. Hell, it is generally accepted that Daredevil is Batman's superior in martial arts h2h ability.

We've touched upon this in the past, but to reiterate...Shang Chi vs. Shiva would be a better match. Iron Fist vs. Shiva would be a better match. Batman (in pure martial arts h2h) is "generally" considered to be inferior to Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Elektra, and Bullseye.

As a very quick point of reference...Batman conceded that it was "conceivable that, after a very long fight, you would eventually defeat me" -- (JLA vs Avengers vs. Captain America). Somehow Black Panther is considered to be right there with Captain American in h2h (well, before Priest got a hold of him, I believe)...and in the relaunch, one of Panther's ancestors encountered Captain America during the 40's and lit him up.


I was agreeing with everything you said until you stated Batman was inferior to Black Panther, Captain America and Bullseye. Bats and BlackPanther have never met, but he has met with Captain America. He had to save Cap from drowning.
As for cheating ----well, that is Bat fighting style. And it is not called cheating, it is called winning.
As for pure h2h fighting capability, Batman is more extensively and intensively trained than Cap, Black Panther and/or DareDevil. The thing about those three is that 2 of them have superior human abilities due to an herb and a serum, and the other has super-human sensory abilities. They are also more acrobatic than Bats (particularly DD), but stating that they know more about unarmed combat than Bats is a fallacy.
Anyways, going back to the 'cheating' part. Remember that Batman is not a 'boy scout' type of vigilante ala Superman and Captain America. The closest people to Bats are DareDevil at his darkest and Black Panther. And even they (although Black Panther comes exceedingly close) do not walk as close to the edge as Batman. Infact Black Panther would probably have a lot to talk about with Batman. But the others, eg Cap America, would probably think Batman is as evil as the people he brings down.
And again, what you may call 'cheating' Batman would call winning. Unlike most vigilantes he has no superpowers, healing abilities, telepathic attacks and/or invulnerabilities. Thus he has no leeway to take risks that entail him being 'honorable' or 'fair.' Doing so would end up with him being injured (making him likely to be killed later), or outright killed.
As for Batman telling Cap America that eventually he'd be able to defeat him. I believe that was the first meeting they had when they fought, and after coming to a stalemate Batman told him that he thought eventually Cap would be able to defeat him. Whcih i would have to agree with, since Batman has a normal metabolism and would eventually get tired while Cap has an enhanced one that takes care of all toxins and acid buildup in his muscles. Meaning Cap could technically still be fighting when Batman is down and out tired as heck! Thus Batman was correct in that.
In the next meeting they fought in the sewer systems, and Batman had to rescue Cap from drowning. Now, one might say that that fight wasn't fair, and that it had extraneous variables added to it. But again, why should Bats not use everything to his advantage?
Anyways, Cap has physical advantages over Batman (and any other human, due to his serum), as does Black Panther (due to his Wakandan herb), and DD has senses even Spiderman would marvel at, but none of them is as extensively trained in the fighting arts as Batman is.
DareDevil is primarily boxing and quasi-ninjitsu, melded with an extremely acrobatic styles.
Black Panther is primarily African martial arts, but it can be safely assumed that he has augmented on these quite a bit.
Cap originally was supposed to know only boxing and judo, but lately (meaning the last 2 decades) he has been made to 'know' more varied styles.
Bats has mastered 127.
But anyways, to make a long (i am verbose) story short, the main thing i wanted to make is that expecting Batman to fight exactly as Cap America does so as to be fair is unfair. It is like expecting a Muay Thai stylist to fight a Western boxer using only his fists and not his legs, shins, elbows, knees and even head, and saying he is cheating when he thwacks the boxer with a crescent kick.
It is not cheating. It is winning in the way he was trained to win.

x_danny_x Senior Member

In real life there is no way a human can learn 127 martial arts. Also there is no way a little girl like Batgirl should beat a man like Batman who is 6'2 and 210 pounds.

In the crossover with Marvel vs DC they had him listed in weighin 242 pounds.

I am sorry, but I imagine these guys what they would be in real life and there is now way in hell that women the size of Shiva and Batgirl being able to beat Batman who is equally skilled and well has over 127 martial arts to his belt that he mastered!

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

spetznaz isn't the last time Bruce and Cass fought Batgirl 50? I dont read very many DC books other then Batman... I just started JLA but that doesn't help here. Batman showed he can hit Cass in that fight I mentioned, Batman has fought Shiva with out being owned and Onyx was hitting Batgirl in the last issue of Batgirl... I should think all of these would mean that Batman could hit her if he wanted to.

Shang Chi is as good or better then any martial artist in DC... Cap and Wolverine are better then he is and BP is at least his equal.

Never Grammaton Cleric
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Who is val and daxamite?

Gladly!

Val is The Karate Kid, about a 12 on a scale of 1-10 in martial arts. A quick list of accomplishments:

-Defeated Daxamites in one-on-one combat, not once but THRICE.

-During combat with said Daxamites, he was able to hurt one of them with a straight forward kick to the face, sending him out of the planets atmosphere.

-Detected weaknesses in objects, to the point of being able to sense flaws and weak points on a molecular level. Using this ability in combination with his other martial abilities, he has been able to break objects that were suppose to be almost unbreakable, including a force field designed to hold the most dangerous criminals in the galaxy, with a single blow.

– Able to shatter Inerton, the universe's strongest substance and 14’ titanium Manganite with his bare hands.

-Re-direct an object in mid-flight that was moving at near-light speeds.

-Dodge all manner of attacks, from bullets to arrows to heat vision blasts fired at superspeed.

-Has been able to tell if someone is being mind-controlled based solely on that person's body language.

-Has been able to defeat large numbers of opponents by himself, including mobs of criminals from a prison
housed inside a star.

– Defeated the Fatal Five single-handedly.

-Was able to defeat, disarm and throw to the ground someone wearing a suit of powered armor.

-Defeat Evolvo in Ape mode, then take out armed security guards in a single pannel.

-Demonstrated hearing so acute that he heard someone's heart beating over a kilometer away.

– Developed the skill to read opponents movements much like Midnighter from Wildstorm and Batgirl from DC.

- Can enhance his strength, speed, and reflexes by his Chi.

-Defeated the most dangerous assassin in the galaxy, the Empress, with one move.

-In his Legion Worlds appearance, even an out of shape Val (who claimed to feel soft and slow) was shown to be able to withstand a sucker punch from someone who had beaten Ferro almost to death. Said someone was from a high gravity world that apparently gave him near-to-equal Daxamite levels of strength and durability. He was then able to make that person cough up blood, cry out in pain and lift the superheavy foe off of the ground with attacks.

- Defeated Thunder, the 31st Century Captain Marvel with ease. SHAZAM!

Daxamites? An alien race native to the DC Universe with similarities to Kryptonians. I must point out a typo on my behalf; Val is not a Daxamite, that should have read "similar to Val and the Daxamites".

I see you cracked up at my Prometheus comment. Not sure if you were doubting it, but in case you were, here is the cover:

http://www.jlafanpage.de/bilder/jla17.jpg

Heh, can't find an American cover. That says "Prometheus Unbound" in...German, I guess? The cover is not misleading like many are. He singlehandedly waltzed through The Martian Manhunter, Batman, The Flash, Steel, and...I'm missing a few I think.

Spetznaz, DC staff writers/editors will tell you that Black Panther (are you familiar with Priest's Black Panther? The one who devised the means to single-handedly take down Galactus.) is not only a better h2h combatant than Batman, but he is also easily more resourceful. This is not the regular Black Panther of old. I also never said that "they know MORE about Batman in unarmed combat." I simply said that they are superior. Many say the same about DD being superior (compare mentors? Shiva is not seeing Stick). Batman might have mastered various martial arts pursuant to his bio, but does anyone really think that he could defeat Elektra or Iron Fist in h2h? Don't know about that.

And I also pointed out that Hudlin began his current run on Black Panther by stating that T'Challa's ancestor destroyed Cap in the 40's (the same Cap that Batman eeked out a victory over, for comparative purposes), and the current Panther is an improvement over his ancestor.

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by x_danny_x
In real life there is no way a human can learn 127 martial arts. Also there is no way a little girl like Batgirl should beat a man like Batman who is 6'2 and 210 pounds.

In the crossover with Marvel vs DC they had him listed in weighin 242 pounds.

I am sorry, but I imagine these guys what they would be in real life and there is now way in hell that women the size of Shiva and Batgirl being able to beat Batman who is equally skilled and well has over 127 martial arts to his belt that he mastered!


True.
In real life there is no way a person can master 127 distinct fighting styles.
Just in the same way there are no super-soldier serums or Wakandan heart herbs.
As for the real life Shiva scenario. Well, i know this lady who does Wushu who absolutely amazes me. She has been studying since she was a child (and again, she wasn't born in the states hence she did not go to those studios where people get black belts at age 10). She is almost half my height, and i can lift her with one hand, but i would never mess with her. She is fast.
Hence it is possible for a Shiva-level adept to beat a Batman-level adept. The only factor is that the smaller lighter person would have to be faster and/or of greater skill. All things being equal/in situ the larer more powerful person, if of equal skill, should win. Hence i'll also agree with you on that one.

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

I think genetic experimentation to get a "super soldier" isn't nearly as farout there as a person mastering 126 martial arts styles but nothing that happens in comics should be possible in the real world. If you are going to nit pick through everything in comics the only thing left for us to read are those lame ass love story comics for chicks and I sure as hell don't want to read that garbage, do you?

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I think genetic experimentation to get a "super soldier" isn't nearly as farout there as a person mastering 126 martial arts styles but nothing that happens in comics should be possible in the real world. If you are going to nit pick through everything in comics the only thing left for us to read are those lame ass love story comics for chicks and I sure as hell don't want to read that garbage, do you?

I'm not nitpicking comics. I was just saying that for that guy to say there is no way a human could learn 127 styles he should also consider that this is comics we are talking about, and thus things like flying and the life are just as fantastical.
Oh, and as for your comment on genetic experimentation being possible. Yes, it is. But nowhere close to anything you can find in comics. To have a super-soldier serum you would have to be able to tweak the human metabolism in a wa whereby the muscles process ATP to ADP with perfect efficiency, muscles do not produce lactic acid, skeletal muscles would have to be turned to cardiac muscle structure (due to the fact that cardiac muscle is the only one that doesn't tire), mylienated nerve sheaths would have to be changed from human to something else (and you'd probably get MS in the process) etc.
Basically it is just not possible with current and projected technology.
(Note: I am a financial analyst, and one of the industries i delve into is the medical tech sphere of influence. Hence i am well versed in available medical technology, and coming up with something even close to Cap America is not possible. The closest was psychodelic drugs given to SR-71 and U2 pilots in the 60s and 70s to give them an advantage during long distance flights, and that was just medication).
In essence, it is much easier (though impossible all the same) to master 127 martial arts than to have a body archetype like Captain America's.
Which is why i waas telling the guy it is all comics. Accept Batman being able to know all those fighting styles in the same way you can accept Cap having his enhanced body and having an unbreakable shield, or an alien from a dead planet who can fly.
It is all comics.

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Sorry for the typos. I'm doing three things at the same time.

RobWolf27 Senior Member

Ok cool But didn't Bruce lee Come up with a new style of Fighting . and what is that martial Arts where you just use your legs more than your arms. Doesn't Batman know that style to? But I think Samurai s were most effective and lethal with there swords and That they were good warriors. Not martial artist though.

RobWolf27 Senior Member

And isn't Ninjetsu like a Martial Art or like kung fu in someways?

papablkbear big pimpalicious
Originally posted by RobWolf27
Ok cool But didn't Bruce lee Come up with a new style of Fighting . and what is that martial Arts where you just use your legs more than your arms. Doesn't Batman know that style to? But I think Samurai s were most effective and lethal with there swords and That they were good warriors. Not martial artist though.

The style your thinking of is TaeKwonDo and it was created in Korea and as for Samurai's they too practiced martial arts. They were the first and last line of defense in old japan and were very apt at killing not only with swords but with there bare hands.

Tron Shinigami Rep.
Originally posted by RobWolf27
Ok cool But didn't Bruce lee Come up with a new style of Fighting . and what is that martial Arts where you just use your legs more than your arms. Doesn't Batman know that style to? But I think Samurai s were most effective and lethal with there swords and That they were good warriors. Not martial artist though.

It wasn't really a new style Lee came up with, and he never claimed it to be. It was basically a bunch of concepts and a mix of effective techniques that he put together that could be applied to already existing styles. And the style where you primarily use your legs, that Tae Kwon Do.

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by RobWolf27
Ok cool But didn't Bruce lee Come up with a new style of Fighting . and what is that martial Arts where you just use your legs more than your arms. Doesn't Batman know that style to? But I think Samurai s were most effective and lethal with there swords and That they were good warriors. Not martial artist though.

1) Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do, which stands for the art of the intercepting fist. It was an offshoot of ving Tsun (Wing Chun), which was Bruce Lee's original martial art. He basically melded Ving Tsun with several eclectic styles (from Filipino martial arts like Escrima and Silat all the way to even French Savate), and made it a no-nonsense martial art. JKD is basically the perfect martial art, and the only one i can think of (that i know) that comes close is Israeli Krav Maga and Lian Shi.
2) Samurai were followers of martial ways (jujitsu) and martial artists(do). The difference between a jitsu and a do is that a jitsu (eh jujitsu, karate-jitsu, although most jujitsus nowadays are actually dos, and karate-jitsu basically became extinct, although Kyukinshai comes close) is concerned with combative aspects, while a do (eg Judo, karate-do) is concerned with self-edification, personal development and spiri-discipline aspects. Samurai generally relied on weaponry, but they also studied various unarmed techniques (eg jujitsu) to use when they had no weapons. Note though that in those days tea ceremonies and flower arrangement were also considered to be martial arts.
3) Most martial arts concentrate on hand attacks rather than leg attacks. For example Karate (the empty hand) has around 65% of its stuff being upper torso movements. The styles that have a lot of leg techniques are Korean Taekwondo, Chinese Northern gungfu (i emphasize nothern since Southern gungfu styles are mostly hands), Brazilian Capoiera (made by African slaves who had to learn to fight with their legs since their hands were shackled. I've seen some even put razor blades between their toes-amazing), Thailand's Muay Thai, and French Savate. Most other styles are primarily biased towards hand movements.
4) Ninjitsu is a collection of several Japanese martial arts (most of them extinct) that generally dealt with stealth and subterfuge. It was actually more of a way of life than an art. And ninjas are not what movies make them to be. They are far from invincible (real ninjas not movie/anime ninjas), and their greatest strength was in stealth and assassination and NOT fighting. Most Samurai could defeat ninja, which is why in most cases ninjas used stealth to their advantage. They would never face Samura in face to face combat. Most of ninjitsu was centered around the Koga and Iga clans, although these main brands also became extinct. Most modern ninjitsu (at least the authentic stuff) is based around Togakure ninjitsu. (I've seen some claim to teach Koga ninjitsu, but most of these are shams). And by the way Ninjitsu, though a japanese word,orignally came from China. Actually all asian martial arts came from China (although they were originally brought to China from India the development into true martial arts happened in China, and then they spread to Korea, South east asia, Okinawa and Japan)
5) Gung fu is loosely oriented into two major families. Northern style (eg northern style Shao-lin, Crane which emphasizes kicks and came from the northern parts of China), and Southern style (eg southern style Shao-lin, Eagle claw, Ving Tsun, Choy la fut and Hung gar, which came from souther china and emphasizes arm and hand techniques). Gung fu literally has thousands of different styles in it. Literally thousands! Many of them are family styles, some clan.

RobWolf27 Senior Member

Thanks for the Info. Oh so it was a mix between all types. There is a little Kung fu in there isn't there. Oh what I meant by warriors that they are not like martial artist today that just use it for sport or personal protection and also for Movies. It was used in war is what I meant . Samurai do use martial arts But it is for fighting in battle and for defense like you said.

RobWolf27 Senior Member

That is cool I didn't know israel had a type of martial arts. Oh though my ancestors are European and they only boxed or fought with a double edge swords and fence and that was for duals . Or some would fight with axes , hammers , long bows , mazes , crossbows, long swords ,short swords , broad swords,lances and with shields to protect them from enemies attacks.

MERCILOUS ALWAYS METAL

A note to all, please make sure you are not using "jitsu" and "do" incorrectly. "Jistu" being art, and "do" being way. Example; Kendo, the way of the sword; and Kenjistu, The art of the sword. Differences may appear superficial, but others including myself insist they are not.

spetznaz Senior Fanboy Killer

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
A note to all, please make sure you are not using "jitsu" and "do" incorrectly. "Jistu" being art, and "do" being way. Example; Kendo, the way of the sword; and Kenjistu, The art of the sword. Differences may appear superficial, but others including myself insist they are not.

True, 'do' traditonally means path/way while jitsu traditionally means art. And there are many that still use that way of looking at things. The way i was formulating it was 'do' as the artistic/edification modern way of most martial forms, and 'jitsu' being the warrior-oriented form (and this is just as legitimate as the prior way depending on how one interprets the kanji for do and jitsu).
Thus you are correct, but so am i. It depents on what intepretation of kanji one uses.
For example take jujitsu and judo. Jigoro Kano, who 'invented' judo, did so because jujitsu had taken a negative connotation at the end of the 19th century going forward. Most people doing jujitsu in Japan were thought to be thugs. He thus 'refined' jujitsu moves, added a lot of self-edifying principles, and started an art called judo at a place called the Kodokan (hence Kodokan Judo). The principle here was that the do was a way, and an art.
To use your example of kendo and kenjitsu.
Kendo is the artistic expression of the human body through sword.
Kenjitsu is the efficient slaying of an enemy through sword.
Kendo uses shinai.
Kenjitsu using bokken (wooden swords that can be as lethal as the real katana), and obvioulsy katana themselves.
Another example: Aikido and Aikijitsu.
Morihei Uheshiba 'founded' Aikido from Aikijitsu for much the same reasons that Jigoro founded Judo from jujitsu. There was a lot of bad blood at the time towards the jitsu forms. Aikido is very refined, very civilized, and highly philosophical. There is an economy of motion, and it is an expression of inner harmony. Aikijitsu was a Samurai method of defeating (and killing) enemies when unarmed.
Final example. Karate-do and Karate-jitsu. Karate-do is the modern form of karate (encompassing all the major families of Japanese and Okinawan styles). The only major surviving member of karate-jitsu would have to be the Kyunkinshai system, which is amazing. Karate-do (be it Gichin Funakoshi's Shotokan, Choyun Miyagi's GojuRyu, etc) is largely an expression of the body through unarmed techniques. Karate-jitsu on the other hand was used by peasants to defend themselves from marauding Samurai.
One thing i loved about my martial systems training abroad was that when it came to Shotokan (which i left after gaining a Ni-dan ranking to pursue other styles) i was taught the hidden technqiues in Kata. Most modern students, particularly those in the US, never learn just how effective some of those Kata movements can be.
In conclusion;
Do means way, jitsu means art.
Do also means artistic expression,and jitsu means combative expression.
Again, it all depends on how you intepret the kanji.
Hope that made sense.

RobWolf27 Senior Member

That is cool. Oh about Bruce Lee he showed it to America and probably to America at that time it was a new martial arts. I saw it on a Bruce Lee movie about his life.