Originally posted by Exabyte
I personally think it's hard to define where one's 'free will' ceases to be free.
When one is locked in an empty room, permanently watched filmed by some camera, one is for sure the camera's object, is treated like a decisionless object by it; one is under the dominion of those who control the room, and unable to do much without them, dependant on them, and probably forced to fulfill several things they demand. It's the same for a dog on the leash, he (usually) has to follow his master's demand, is not free to do all he wants to;
Wow. Really good examples. And after reading your post it seems to me that the problem isn't with the orcs, but with the environment:
but latitude simply cannot evolve because of the overpowering environment, being too strong for the individual or even the mass.
If the orcs truly are independent and able to make up their own mind, determine right from wrong...or have a conscience...then it is not because of themselves that they seem one-sided, and 'heartless', but it is because of the overpowering environment (Sauron) that dosn't really give them a choice BUT to serve him and only him....therefore making the BIGEST and possibly the most important decision for them. therefore (may be) taking away THAT aspect of their free-will.
However, like the dog on a leash, or the watched person in a locked room...a part of their free-will remains...letting them make decisions and choices themselves...so long as they meet with the requirements of the master. (Sauron)
Unless, Sauron really has nothing to do with 'free-will' at all, and is only someone of authority and power...for we ALL have someone 'over us', or in authority over us...(our parents, law-enforcement, the president, prime minister, God) and they really have nothing to do with our free will at all...???😬
Does free will mean freedom of mind or freedom of hand?
Excellent question. And I must say my brain ached for a second when I first read it.😂
We cannot act(hand) without first thinking(mind) and making up our minds TO act...but we can do nothing about the choices we make in our minds without our free hands to act them out -to carry out the choices that our free mind has decided.
So, I think it's both.😖
On the other hand, it clearly says in the book that the orcs were direct objects to Sauron's will, forced to do all he wants
Sauron's Will? shock *stores fact in my free brain*
- but would anyone noticed if some just weren't? Or if a whole group wasn't, thinking of the orcs in the Misty Mountains?
Good point.
Also:
Certainly not ALL orcs are under Sauron. (are they?)
Originally posted by shadowy_blueI would like to bring myself into the fray, Master Smodden and Lady Exa after I've sat back and watched for a while.
master/lady😂
and indeed my lady shadow are you welcome into 'the fray'
Orcs. Reared for a sole purpose, dealt with an “iron hand”, beaten into submission from conception, conceived for the purpose of hate, death and suffering; their lives mean nothing to those above them, around them and below them; hate themselves, their comrades and their lot, killed by both their enemies and allies. What then can this creature do? One orc who refuses to fight is beaten, and then if it continues, is killed. Die fighting, or just die in pain! They become spiteful and hateful beings almost immediately.
Another idea I thought of because of this, is that Evil, and serving sauron, is all they've ever known...from the moment they're spawned...till they die.
And yet, despite all these, Orcs are moral beings, as Tolkien admits. They have souls, and when they die (this is a later thought of Tolkien's) their souls go to Mandos. So if they have souls, then they must have had free will and the capacity for moral decisions.
Souls! How could I have overlooked that in all this discussion of free-will and morality. tx s-b.
The Nazgul chose to take the Rings. Saruman chose to pursue power. Even Shelob, while she must eat, chooses to “play” and “make sport” of her captives. But orcs don't choose to be orcs. This differentiates the Orcs from the Men amongst the "forces of evil". The Haradrim made a choice to join forces with Sauron's army, yet we can see from Sam's reflections on the dead Haradrim soldier that perhaps not all of them made that choice.
Yet another very good point s-b,😄 yeah they ARE orcs. But wern't they once elves?😕
I'm a little confused about the early origins of orcs...but I'm pretty sure they were just corrupted forms of elves made by Morgoth...for the Enemy is not capable of creating anything original...he can only corrupt and mock things...orcs in mockery of the elves, trolls in mockery of the ents...
every "creation" stems from the original designs of Eru(?)(or God).(Iluvatar?)
But yeah, I see your point, the orcs are born into this world as orcs, NOW. and they really didn't have a say in the mater.
They... dont? dontgetit
Well, define 'ass'.😬
Balrogs are made of fire and shadow, so...omg
/😆 ^^This could start another long discussion!